Trying to negotiate an internal move and keep getting different answers on where I actually land within the range. Base would put me near the bottom but including the target bonus would put me closer to the middle. Which is it?
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OP here; wanted to thank everyone in this thread for giving me more information than I’ve been able to extract from the entire recruiting process and 20 town halls
@1lmp
Lead software engineer is not an executive role. Go look them up now, there are multiple ones out there, same with Senior Software Engineer and Principal Engineer, pretty much every tech position i look up has higher ranges in NY and CA than others. It could also be they changes things from when you worked on it. I’m going by what my eyes show on workday, anyone else internally can go look up the same.
I found out that: Start with the high wage state, begin WHF, then move to low wage State where your salary then maxed, Unless they promote you. What happens is that you are unable to get your cost-of-living increase, so they just give you a bigger bonus at the end of the year. Happen to anyone, yet
The only reason that could happen is either A) the recruiter made a mistake as stated before, B) the role is deemed an “executive” role, or C) the role was deemed hard to fill or hard to fill in a particular location so likely OC or OC +1 approval was given to adjust the salary range. Otherwise, it is to be standard across the board, regardless of location.
I’ve found they are based on the primary location. If you look up lead software engineer for example. One with the primary location in NY has a higher pay range than one based out of NC. The difference isn’t extreme, but it exists.
What you’re saying makes absolute sense. I don’t have a discretionary bonus as a premier banker , so my pay range in the postings only include salary along with other branch banking roles like you said. That explanation was pretty helpful.
Sorry to assume you didn’t know what you were talking about - it’s just what I’m used to from people on this site.
I just helped carry out the work, but I don't agree with it, so what you say has merit. However, the "mantra" in redoing the job architecture was to simplify the amount of titles we had and to make them more consistent w/ our overall industry (we all know direction provided can also be different than true "motivations"). To determine the ranges, the comp consultants did industry research along with a consulting firm to determine the least amount someone in that similar title was paid in total comp across the industry and all locations, as well as the most that similar title was paid in total comp across all locations. So in what was described by the leadership in needing it done was to "simplify" when in reality, it did become more complicated for all involved.
If you truly found 2 EXACT titled positions within 2 different job area differentials that had a differing max, then the recruiter made a mistake in posting, which shouldn't happen because recruiters are SUPPOSED to be pulling the standardized job architecture template for the position and modifying it ONLY as required by the hiring manager (for example, the recruiter CANNOT take anything out of the normal/standard description/requirements/experience/skills, but CAN modify to include additional requirements as specified by the hiring manager and/or include very specific information in regard to the business line or team the position will be working for/in.). My suspicion is that perhaps it was NOT the exact same position (not to say recruiters don't make mistakes because they do, but they should NEVER be altering the pay ranges unless it's specified as an executive role). For example, maybe you saw an Execution Lead posted in one area and a Senior Execution Lead posted in another location, which have differing pay ranges and happened to be located in different area differential codes.
Awe dang, you caught me.......clearly I don't know what I'm talking about even though I helped orchestrate the changes because you're a premier banker and you're going to make higher than the max shows this year. Oh wait, you forgot that there is a DIFFERENCE between the FUNCTIONAL incentive plans (which there are 100+ total at Wells Fargo) and DISCRETIONARY bonus plans. Those positions that fall under FUNCTIONAL plans are incentivized completely surrounding production and meeting the requirements in their bonus plan documents (which there are always balancing features in the bonus plan for making sure that what you produce is done within the confines of policy and compliance and no misconduct was substantiated during the payout period). DISCRETIONARY plans are not paid based on "widgets" produced or "sales". Instead, it's based on the performance of the overall company, board approval of funding, etc. Then, once board approves funding, each area of the bank is provided an amount to allocate to their people.
The pay range encompasses DISCRETIONARY bonus amounts for those positions that qualify for the DISCRETIONARY bonus plan (typically referred to as the "WF Bonus Plan"). If you are on a FUNCTIONAL incentive plan (which Premier Bankers are, so are titles like mortgage originators, tellers, etc.), then the ranges DO NOT include the bonus amounts because those are based on what you produce, NOT company performance.
So please next time, check yourself before being so snippy/flippant when you think you have found the "fatal flaw" in someone's expertise.
Because they’re hoping less transparency means they’ll have more negotiating power and will be able to gradually lower average compensation over time. Never mind the fact that the huge ranges with literal midpoints well above what they’re actually likely to offer as base salary means hiring managers will end up wasting time with applicants thinking they’ll be offered more and then turn the offer down when it isn’t enough to make it worth leaving their current job.
Is it really always the full range for all areas though? Or just the areas listed in the job posting? I at one point was trying to figure out how they did this, and at one point I definitely found an example of two different postings for the same job title, one in just area 2 locations and one in both area 2 and area 1, and they both had the same min but the latter had a higher max, if I recall.
Ok, if this is true (it would be consistent with what I’ve seen, so I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt), why the he-l did they have to make it so complicated and non-transparent? It still isn’t clear at all to employees and applicants how this comp outline is supposed to work. I even asked my manager about it and he had no clue.
The way this was rolled out has several obvious negative effects on morale for both internal employees and potential applicants. It’s stuff like this that makes you question if Wells Fargo is a good place to grow your career, even if you are otherwise happy in your role.
RIP your career…
Alright if everything you say is true, can you help me understand why the top of the pay range for my job says 100k (premier banker, level 3 area differential), but I’m going to end up making about 115k or so this year?
People, STOP saying the pay ranges are base pay only. They are NOT. For crying out loud, I was part of the creation of the job architecture work and the Workday comp module, so please don't give out improper information without knowing the truth. The pay ranges are so wide because of 2 variables:
- The "job area" codes f(for example, area 0 for highest cost of living, area 1 for second highest, etc.) where you used to have differentiated min, midpoint, and max are now all incorporated into the same pay range. So if you are in an "area 0" (highest cost of living), you're going to be looking at pay in the higher part of the range.
- The pay ranges ALSO INCLUDE BONUS POTENTIAL. Again, the other reason the pay ranges are so large. The ranges are loaded into the comp module within Workday so that when the managers are making the total variable compensation decisions, they can see where that amount makes you fall in regard to the range. If you are higher in the range already in base salary, probably less of a bonus unless the manager can justify going over the highest part of the range and it gets approved by multiple levels. Additionally, the comp module also shows the manager what bonus you received last year and there are %'s in change from bonus from prior year to current year that display for the manager as well so he/she can know how much of an increase or decrease the bonus they're recommending compares to last year. There is guidance that is provided to managers to show them acceptable % change ranges depending on your performance rating as well as whether or not you had a promotion or demotion during the year (which of course should allow you to have a higher or lower bonus amount based on that).
Think about it........for a midpoint that used to be $150k in a mid job area (like "area 2") with a prior 25% target bonus, do you REALLY think the company made the range from $120k - $300k WITHOUT it including the accounting for job areas as well as bonus potential with TVC? Just apply common sense for crying out loud!
With pay ranges between 50-300K, good freaking luck knowing what it pays.
Make sure you indicate g-y, colored and disabled in order to be considered for any roles today :)
WHERE do you find this in workday??
Salary only
Also, since you’re internal, regardless of where you fall within the range, they aren’t going to want to offer you more than a 20% increase in base pay from your current salary (so long as that amount is above the listed min) since anything above that for an internal promotion would require approval from an operating committee member. So unless the group is desperate enough to hire that the OC member has taken to rubber stamping those approvals, that 20% increase is the hard-cap max you should be negotiating for.
I think the minimum is lowest possible base pay but the max is highest possible total variable comp. So it’s literally the full range of money someone in that position could get paid in a single year. The range can be widened even further if the same job posting is listed as hiring in more than one area and those areas have different cost of living levels, because then the range will be the minimum base pay in the cheapest area to the highest TVC in the most expensive area. That’s how you see some postings where the max is nearly double the min. They do it this way to have as little transparency as possible about how much you’ll actually get offered when you apply for a job, while still technically not being incorrect about the theoretical pay ranges.
what is shown as range is for base only.
Total variable compensation includes cash and stock. "Under TVC, managers will make a single variable compensation decision (without the use of targets)." That being said, the initial offer would normally be base I would think, because you aren't guaranteed a bonus amount. However, once you get your first bonus, and merit increase, you get something showing what your total compensation is, and that includes your bonus. So if you are close to the middle when everything is included, that will affect how much of a bonus and merit increase you get.
If I were you, I would think about the job itself, and whether the job gives you new skills that will help you in your career goals. You might also ask if it's possible to shadow someone on the team for a day, to get a feel for what it would be like.
Yes
Base only. With the move to total variable compensation they will give as few opportunities as possible to publicize bonus numbers or ranges.