The following simple argument demonstrates that the architects & advocates of the current policy are not of the intellectual caliber which can create, maintain, & make prosper a once-great company. It also implies that their real agenda is not what is stated. If a company suddenly starts increasing its minority & female ratios, , dramatically, then that means one of two things: That they were discriminating even in the recent past, or that they are now hiring ones who are not at the required level of competence AND discriminating against qualified others. Where are all the lawyers? We worked with females, Blacks, & Hispanics who are competent, & a pleasure to work with. They had gotten in by their own smarts & hard work. Also, the hypocrisy of the female ratios is mind boggling: They are significantly non-American, & largely Indian. So, Intel is importing from the virtually-infinite pool of 1.3B Indians, & destroying incentives for improving American female STEM education & opportunity.
16 replies (most recent on top)
Posted by Anonymous 11 days ago:
You also commoditize Engineering, to where the native population abandons it, and moves elsewhere. Especially considering the cultural changes in the work environment (one is a stranger in his own land).
As a an Indian American (as in I affiliate waaay more with America than India having only lived here!), I find myself with the same feeling - a stranger in his own land with so many immigrants in our engineering ranks. I guess I have it a bit better than the previous poster as I kinda look like the people coming in, so I don't immediately seem like the "odd man out," and I've also been able to form a few good friendships in the process of getting to know some good folks.
However, I've come to realize that market dynamics have driven this commoditization of Engineering. I started realizing this as an undergrad in fact, when most of my classmates were NOT white/black/hispanic Americans. And among those of us that were Indian/Chinese/Etc-American, most seemed to have strayed away from pure Engineering to get into what was more clearly lucrative (law/medicine/marketing/sales/finance). What's then reflected in industry are:
1) American-bred engineers who are in the game for other reasons than just money
2) Foreign workers (sorry to lump everyone in one boat as they themselves do demonstrate diversity)
Regarding 1), many become disgruntled as they see their former peers rise the ranks in other areas. Some decide to stick it out and do pretty well, sometimes even making step function increases in salary through more entrepreneurial endeavors. Others either exit or find themselves further disgruntled by being stuck in pigeon-holed positions, oblivious to the possibilities out there.
At the end of the day, Engineering has been a reflection of the global economy and capitalism. You've got to have a love of the game to be able to adapt to changing tides, and even be willing to starve a bit and not expect a linear, upward trajectory at all times. The fact of the matter is that Engineering is hard - it's NOT the path of least resistance or guarantee riches, so the only way we can sustain more American representation in Engineering, and especially underrepresented minorities and women, is to cultivate a better culture where people gravitate toward the field out of their own interest, as market forces (outside of Web 2.0 software engineering) or government policies/funding don't paint an extremely rosy future of Americans studying and working in engineering fields.
These useless policies doesn't help Intel's cost structure and it rather deteriorate. This is what's been seen now as it's not focusing core business at all. BK can increase earnings/revenues QoQ slightly but not so long. Once the competitors start slashing Intel's market share and reached to a certain point, Intel no longer sustain business all across the board; then massive ACT has to occur to get away from the situation. And that'll be the end of the company. It's only one way process to get there, no way to return unfortunately at this point as it's screwed up so much already. It's just a matter of time; ACT soon would help but still won't make it thru.
@2gaa Sounds to me like you are unable or afraid to follow the links.
What you are doing is the Logical Fallacy called the "Fallacy fallacy" where one attempts to disprove a point by finding something minor to complain about. I guess they no longer teach logic in schools. Your arguments are without merit.
@2tbd, Intel needs more people like you, not those useless female H1Bs.
The $64 question is what happens between the time various people apply for a particular job at Intel and the time a specific set of candidate resumes land in the hiring manager's inbox. What automated filters are applied to incoming resumes and what rules cause a resume to not get passed on to the next level? From there, what manual filtering occurs in HR that favors some over others? These together determine what the hiring manager sees.
@@-hbd what you are referring as bad examples of technically knowledgeable managers is actually technically semi competent and that is dangerous, even more than no knowledge
@2hbw - you are either deliberately lying or you are delusional... Here you go - Intel's H1B salary info is public info, I have all 2016 numbers for San Diego:
http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=intel&job=&city=SAN+DIEGO&year=2016
Summarized, Intel San Diego H1B median pay is $100K, average is $104K... We'll work with median numbers below. $100K/year translates to $8.3/mo - assuming 25% total tax (federal and state) the take home would be $6.2K and tax would be $2.1K... So, we are talking $6.2K here - you can bake in a bit of bonus here but for a sub 100K comp that would not move the needle much...
Most lenders recommend sub 30% DTI (debt to income ratio), so really your typical H1B in San Diego in 2016 should not be spending more than $2K to $2.5K on a house...
Now, do a bit of math to support your "owning some San Diego streets" - this mathematically impossible unless we are talking about slums of San Diego...
See #1 for Zillow's average home prices for San Diego (The median price of homes currently listed in San Diego is $675,000)
Assuming 675K price, with 5% down, 4% 30 year fixed loan, you'll end up with a $3K principal/interest payment, tax $700, insurance $200, PMI $500 and $300 average HOA. Total $4,700/month without upkeep cost...
There you have it...
H1B is a scam, has nothing to do with race and is here to depress IT wages. Inflation adjusted IT wages have been stagnating since 2002. Just like all I outlined above, these are numerical facts that stand in stark contrast to notions of street ownership and national pride.
1: San Diego Home Values https://www.zillow.com/san-diego-ca/home-values/
2: Current Mortgage Rates https://www.wellsfargo.com/mortgage/rates/
3: Recommended DTI Levels http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/05/030905.asp
4: Simple Mortgage Calculator http://usmortgagecalculator.org/
5: H1B Salary Data http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=intel&job=&city=SAN+DIEGO&year=2016
@2ojw The difference between you and me is that you have a basic grasp of economics. A very basic one. I have more than just a basic grasp of economics. The idea that salaries are only influenced by supply and demand shows that if you ever held an economics book in your hands, you stopped readin after the first paragraph.
@1gbq By the way, the basic skill of posting working links seems to elude you. Not surprising, as you are obviously not very smart.
The one working link of the three you posted has only one "proof" for the idea that H1Bs are pushing salaries down: That salaries have been flat - which is something that could have had a thousand reasons. That's quite weak.
@1gbq You know, when you think that someone can only have a different opinion from yours if they were paid for it as an HR shill, then you seriously need psychotherapy. Not joking here.
In any case, you avoided one major point I made: If H1Bs are so cheap, then how can whole streets in San Diego be owned by H1Bs? You think they got some H1B rebate of 300k on their houses?
Also, you missed the part where I spoke about Intel and not the US as a whole. I gave you my experience as a manager. Something you don't have. If you were a manager, you would know that what I wrote was 100% correct.
@2ojw - The decrease in quality and commoditization of engineering jobs that has happened due to the hiring of massive amounts of Indians and other low-cost foreigners is appalling.
Sad to hear an engineering manager without a grasp of basic economics. Whenever there is a large supply, prices are influenced downward, especially over a long time. You also commoditize Engineering, to where the native population abandons it, and moves elsewhere. Especially considering the cultural changes in the work environment (one is a stranger in his own land). Just look at how many American students are working hard to go to medical and dental schools, and how just a fraction are accepted. Americans want to see a return for their hard work. The medical profession is well-organized and does not allow to sacrificing quality for a few dollars.
@1qtv So nice to hear the HR perspective presented while posing as an engineering manager. I notice you have no references. Here are some from this year showing that
H1Bs are used to Suppress Wages
Economists think so:
http://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2015/05/economists-h-1b-visas-suppress-wages
When the Huffington Post agrees with Trump there must be a rift in the space time continuum.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-h-1b_us_5890d86ce4b0522c7d3d84af
Even 60 Minutes gets in on the act.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-h-1b-visas-being-hijacked-to-lower-labor-cost
Funny, whenever I have open positions in my team, none of those great imaginary American STEM graduates apply. So I end up having to hire an H1B. You think I prefer that? No, because unlike what d.u.m.b.a--.e.s like you think, H1Bs are not cheaper, because even if they got a lower salary (which they don't), relocation and visa costs are still quite high.
It's bizarre how many people think that H1Bs are cheap (they probably have to, because it's a convenient way to avoid thinking about why H1Bs are really hired), while there are whole areas in San Diego that are near-completely owned by H1B Indians. You think they managed to afford those houses on a 90k/year salary?
Yes, you are correct again. Intel and other high tech companies need to look at the students that are are coming out from American Universities. The STEM program is yielding trained Americans that are ready to work. The H1b may be cheaper but look we have American's ready to work. Think about it.
I also have issues with hiring URM from international countries. Market availability should be based on us citizens, else we can easily hire Hispanics from south America and AA from Africa. That wouldn't really be what the US government wants us to do when it says it wants diversity, would it?