Thread regarding Ford layoffs

How Did Ford End Up in The State it is In Today. And what if anything can be done?

As I have been reading this posting board for the past few years, what I conclude is that most people posting truly want Ford to succeed, but are very understandably extremely frustrated, and often angry with how things are going, and where they fear things are heading. Although I am not a Ford employee, I have been deeply embedded in the auto industry my entire life, and employed in it from many different vantage points since 1977. And until the past few years, I aways had Ford on a pedestal, above the other two automakers within the Detroit-3, and constantly cited Ford as the best-in-class overall Detroit-3 automaker. But now I am as concerned as most of you

Note:
dates and specifics will be approximate but directionally right on.
And absolutely none of this is criticism of any individual hard working member of the Ford troops. This is an assessment and critique of the systems under which you must operate.

So I hope that you take the historical context of my working hypothesis on how Ford got to the difficulties of today and energetically discuss it, and further improve on the hypothesis, because as much as we technical types hated the waste of time of required history classes in school:

those who ignore the lessons of history are dammed to repeat them, or at least their rhymes.

And if the lessons are ignored now, the outcome is likely to be those of all of your worst fears.

From the inception of the auto industry through the 1970s the quality of cars was frankly terrible – we literally expected them to break down all the time and rust through almost as fast. But around then the Japanese imports began to make markets share headway and by then had begin employing the Statistical Quality Control (SPC) approach of Americans like Demming. So Japanese imported cars began to be better than Big-4, and then later Detroit-3, automakers and it was hurting the Detroit-3.

To Ford’s credit, it was the first to quietly begin trying SPC methods in manufacturing in the very early 1980s, first internally to Ford, and then deploying it into the supply base requiring it of them as well.

The impact on product longevity from dramatically reducing the variability in dimensions and other key part attributes through SPC in manufacturing was so large that by about 1986/1987, when Ford’s warranty data crunchers ran the data, the cost to do a 7-8 year/70-80 K miles warranty was about the same as it had been in the 1970s for a 12 month/12 K miles warranty.

So about that time Ford launched its 5-year/50 K miles powertrain warranty and within days GM and Chrysler countered with 6/60 and 7/70. But my suspicion is that since they were further behind in embracing SPC, it probably cost them pretty dearly whereas not so for Ford.

But once anyone has conquered manufacturing quality that ends the improvement unless one tackles the source of most quality/reliability/durability issues, and that is those that are designed into the product. Manufacturing perfectly “to print” of a flawed or unvalidated part, is still going to fail at some point.

So presumably, beginning by about 1990, Ford was increasing process discipline in Product Development. The list of things that need to go right in product development, so that when the entire vehicle is assembled, you have a professional symphony and not a grade school band is endless. But the most important thing is, absolutely nothing should advance from one stage to the next unless it is fully validated. And once something is validated one must never make late changes unless they too are then fully validated before launch. The enemy of that is time pressure which is enormous. But if one adheres to everything must be validated the result will be stellar and if one succumbs to timing pressures, then you have what we have today.

So when did the product development portion go off the rails?

From the mid-1980s though about 2008, in general, Ford customer satisfaction continued to climb, and NHTSA Safety Complaints continued to fall, and Ford was the recognized quality leader within the Detroit-3.

But in about 2009, suddenly NHTSA Safety Complaints doubled or tripled and remained up there for many years thereafter. And only about one-sixth of the increase was Focus/Fiesta DPS6 transmission The rest was across the other newly launched vehicles beginning in MY 2009 and thereafter.

Before we assume something went wrong in 2009 and blame the financial and auto meltdown, we must remember that a vehicle launched in the 2009 model year began development 3-4 years earlier, and most of the major decisions are locked in, very early in the 3-4 year period. So the key date is about 2006.

In summary:
The root causes of Ford difficulties today are about 12-years old, not recent - The chronic, across the board quality and warranty issues today, and ever since about 2009, began in about 2006, but more and more pressure on time may have caused them to get worse and worse since then, for example during the Explorer/Aviator development period.
Unless the rigorous adherence to the best practices of product development validation is restored to the pre-2006 culture, the rash of issues plaguing Ford today will likely drag the company under.
Time is of the essence because even if pre-2006 Product Development culture of validation discipline were restored this week there are 3 more years of launches in which major unvalidated designs may already be baked in.

I look forward to your rigorous constructive feedback and don’t worry, I can take the barrage of arrows and bullets too.

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| 3001 views | | 24 replies (last March 16, 2021) | Reply
Post ID: @OP+19PSzrEA

24 replies (most recent on top)

@4wct+19PSzrEA there are salaried white collar LL6 and GSR who are regularly under the influence at work. It is an open “secret”. One LL6 went out to his car @Fmcc for a snort several times a day. The guy was always blowing up at coworkers. Heck he was even reported to HR by the Ford Garage because he came to trade his lease car under the influence and was dumb enough to leave the empty bottles in the vehicle for them to clean up. What happened? Nothing, the guy is still doing the same thing today.

In general the Ford culture is very bad

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Post ID: @4jgn+19PSzrEA

@4hqm+19PSzrEA,

Exactly. We're constantly in a position of having little or no control, and all of the responsibility/liability.

@3mgk+19PSzrEA,

There is no way an engineer should be compared to a extremely protected and privileged UAW employee. How long would a engineer let alone a contractor last if he/she came in drunk/buzzed/stoned? Also, constantly F up at work? No to mention an engineer has a degree, UAW barley high school if at all. I heard about a UAW guy who got fired for having a firearm in his vehicle, while on company property.. the union still got his job back. Most of the quality issues including recalls can be traced back to plant issues.

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Post ID: @4wct+19PSzrEA

I had the below quote posted in my cubicle for years. After one of the ever present LL6-LL5 rotations, I received a email from LL6 copying LL5 and HR indicating I needed to take down offensive paper in my cubicle. It was the only thing posted in my cube and the text was small enough that you could only read it if you were sitting right in front of it. It must of offended the LL6, who liked to snoop in peoples cubicles. I responded Q.E.D. to the email and took the quote down. Funnily enough the LL5 invited me for lunch and we got along well after that. The LL6 not so much.

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

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Post ID: @4fup+19PSzrEA

@3mgk+19PSzrEA "And just like the UAW, you are just doing the minimum, collecting your paycheck year after year"

Yes, sometimes it feels like that. I usually have around 14 hours of meetings in a week (most of them unimportant), although I had weeks with 20+ hours in meetings. That already is crippling my productivity. At one point, I was told I had to accept and attend those meetings as part of my job. (mandated by my manager)

Besides, as part of being a team player (also included in my job description), I spend at least a couple hours weekly (sometimes even more) helping the deadwoods in my team (A.K.A, doing their job). (mandated by my manager)

Then, as I need to interact with other teams, I end occasionally wasting hours of my time chasing people, so they would do their jobs, so I can do mine. (most of the time, my manager cannot help me at all with this)

The sad part is that after all these wasted hours, I am still producing more than many other employees, but at the same time, if layoffs come to my team, I will be handed the first pink slip (I am a contractor). And just to add injury to the insult, my salary was docked last year.

From Office Space: "So where is the motivation? It’s not that I’m lazy, it’s that I just don’t care. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired. ”

Yes, I know. I should get another job (and I will), but when is convenient for me. In the mean time, while I am getting ready, I'll keep receiving my paycheck and spending half of my work time in boring meetings.

Thanks

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Post ID: @4hqm+19PSzrEA

yep all those powerpoints and timing plans are really pumping up the bottom line.

Once when I was a Ford supplier I apologized to my Ford engineer for not knowing all the latest GPDS timing milestone lingo and he said "don't worry about it we change our processes constantly and don't follow our timing plans anyways"

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Post ID: @3xjf+19PSzrEA

@3mgk+19PSzrEA nailed it

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Post ID: @3hng+19PSzrEA

@3mgk+19PSzrEA,

"I always thought that it was a little odd that nobody in charge was worried that a CAR company was making its profits from banking and not actually from manufacturing/selling cars and light trucks."

Basically this is the root cause.

This way of business thinking led to the downfall of a lot of retailers and restaurants. Sears and JC Penny are two good examples. They chased their customers away to Amazon. Ford is in the process of chasing their customers away to foreign vehicles.

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Post ID: @3edj+19PSzrEA

The original poster brought up valid points, but was very product development/SPC process focused. But Ford is a big ship and there are plenty of other factors that contribute to the success of Ford or its demise. For example, during the 90's, profits from Ford Credit were usually the reason the company was profitable. Automotive operations during the 1990's were rarely profitable regardless of quality improvements/SPC initiatives, etc. Nobody cared though as long as they were getting big bonuses (even one of the responders in this thread mentioned good bonuses in the 90's). I was an employee during that decade and I always thought that it was a little odd that nobody in charge was worried that a CAR company was making its profits from banking and not actually from manufacturing/selling cars and light trucks. I left in 2005, so I can't speak first hand anymore as a Ford employee, but I have been a supplier employee to Ford since then. I can tell you from a supplier perspective Ford is just as pathetic as when I was an employee of Ford.

It is like nothing changes/improves at Ford over time; just continues to get worse. So, for all you experts trying to predict when the problems started going down (2008, 2006, 2000, etc.); I think you are all wrong. The problems haven been going on for a long, long time. It is called being complacent/arrogant as the company grew over decades. I can't tell you how many people I knew in powertrain at Ford when I worked there in the 1990s who stopped working productively after 20 years of service because they were just getting ready for retirement at 30 years of service. And those people didn't go away after they froze the pension plan either. And as a customer that buys vehicles; I can tell you that I would never buy a Ford vehicle. For anyone who doesn't get your A-plan pricing, Ford vehicles are just overpriced compared to the competition on any vehicle line. I don't have to be in sales to figure that one out - although, I would think the people in your sales teams would. (Speaking of sales - have you ever seen the number of people in sales/marketing at Ford??? Just amazing!!! And I am not counting the people at dealerships who actually do interact with a "real, actual" customer and do real, actual sales!) Then if you include quality concerns; it is a hands down decision not to purchase a Ford product. So, the whole customer base of Ford is now down to 2 groups: (1) employees/family members with A-Plan employee pricing or (2) die-hard F150 truck buyers. Not a great position to be in for a company that has talked out their "behind" for the last 25+ years about "focusing on the customer". I have noticed in the reply to the OP in this posting and in other threads on this site various opinions about how bad the following groups are: (1) CEO's (past and present); (2) Ford Family; (3) executive team; (4) management team (LL4,LL5,LL6); and (5) the UAW. That is pretty much the entire company!!! And don't get me wrong, I agree with anyone who writes or speaks badly about any of those groups. They are usually correct. But, I always end up shaking my head because many of these people apparently think the non-management salaried workforce is doing good. But if any of you reading or writing on this "layoff" board were honest with yourself, half of the salaried workforce at Ford could be let go tomorrow and it would be a HUGE benefit to the morale and bottom line of the company. Meaning you would actually get more work done with better results. And even after getting rid of 1/2 of the employees, there is still a huge chunk of the remaining so called value-added employees who just spend their day creating power point presentations or useless timing plans that nobody in your company follows anyway. So, the company could let those people go also and it wouldn't hurt the bottom line one bit. So, in summary for all you Ford employees who look in the mirror and talk/write about who is to blame, how the management team is useless, how diversity is harming the company, when the slide in the company started, etc. —> the fact is the ENTIRE company (including all the salary people on this board) has a huge culture and business problem that does not lead to a successful, profitable company. And just like the UAW, you are just doing the minimum, collecting your paycheck year after year, blaming others; knowing that the US government will bail you out in the end just like they did at GM and Chrysler. And for the 25-40% of salaried workers at Ford who do work hard, produce real work and results - you know who you are. I respect you and always will. My comments won't bother you because you know they are true and you are just hoping you are not the one picked for downsizing. Don't worry, I am not predicting Ford's failure as a company. I know there will be good times and bad times in the years ahead for Ford. But just like people on welfare, you will all get bailed out by the taxpayer in the end to keep you all employed (there will be some let go beforehand of course). But being a Ford employee really is just a jobs program now - Diversity programs or not. College educated or not, none of you even care as long as you keep getting paid and get a bonus. And the more down reactions I receive on this post will just tell me (and YOU) how right I am about this subject.

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Post ID: @3mgk+19PSzrEA

A good double feature is to watch Gung Ho followed by Office Space.

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Post ID: @1ooa+19PSzrEA

@1uws+19PSzrEA

Why, Why, WHY? Would another company want to acquire Ford? The leadership, the UAW (U ain't Working) toxic office culture.. and on and on.. talk about a high risk investment. It would be funny to see a Japanese company take over like in the movie Gung Ho. Gung Ho is an old movie however, most of it really hits the nail on the head illustrating the issues in the American auto industry. If you work in the auto industry this movie is a must see.

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Post ID: @1vpf+19PSzrEA

Root cause: Ever expanding rot in the leadership starting in early 2000/ late 1990s enabled by HR policies. At one point people and projects were judged based on merits and ethics.
Then HR started blanket initiatives. The first one was a blanket promotion of females to right the wrongs of the past. Now some of the females truly deserved the promotion, unfortunately many did not. Suddenly you had people with power who did not have skills, temperament or knowledge suited for the positions. Of course bad decision after bad decision ensued. Also the cover ups and false reporting upward really ramped up. The icing on the cake was the bad LL hired and promoted more people just like themselves.
Since that initiative many more blanket initiatives have occurred based on attributes other than merits and ethics.
Around the same time HR started claiming that all LL6, LL5, etc are interchangeable and that an LL should not need any knowledge of the area they are managing.
Recipe for disaster.

I wish I knew how Ford could fix the situation. I rather think they will not as Bill does not have the stomach for the actions to fix the situation. The more likely outcome is Ford being acquired by anothther company, and that company will axe the Ford leadership and their cronies.

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Post ID: @1uws+19PSzrEA

Wow this site was supposed to be about layoffs!!! We it sure as hell is bad management is at the core of company failure and hence layoffs. For lost their way long ago train station ..... give me a break..... EV’s give me a ice vehicle..... climate change give me a group of scientists that are not receiving a government grant ....., it’s not just ford it is the whole stinking USA.

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Post ID: @1rlr+19PSzrEA

If you think the jury is out on diversity you are not paying attention. The jury says diversity is an Orwellian newspeak term with drastic implications on destroying our society. Diversity means we must all believe the exact same dishonest things the people in charge tell you to believe.

High school and even kindergarten kids are being forced into confessing their white privilege by their radical left teachers. That's what I call child abuse but it's what many Ivy League educated dandies and the Ivy League ladies who run HR call justice.

Last night on Tucker Carlson link below,,,,,, great story about the white school kid being browbeat into confessing his white dominance by his activist teacher. Now his black mother (surprise plot twist— the white kid's mom is black) is suing the school and here's hoping they bankrupt the corrupt school .......but with the whole government being run by the O'Bama/Biden corrupt dept of in- justice..... we shall see.

https://www.nevadacurrent.com/2021/01/21/las-vegas-charter-school-sued-for-curriculum-covering-race-identity/

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Post ID: @lmz+19PSzrEA

Actually the downfall started at Ford 2000. Look closely at Ford North America back then. Those old evil white guys, Well they knew what the customer wanted. Back then Ford did not rely 90% for its profits on F-Series. Explorer made more money than F-Series with half the volume. BTW. That jag purchase that was a family idea..
I am not racist or s-xist. I really don't care what race , or s-x top level management are as long as they are competent. If you look at Sports teams they go after the players to to WIN. Don't mater if that team is all one race or s-x as long as they Win and stays out of trouble. The Fans Are Happy. Same applies with a corporation. in the 90s we made record profits. Everyone was happy with their bonus, As for diversity the jury is out. Competent people is what you look for. Real leadership. not some clown who comes in after the fact slap paint on a car then claims the glory. No you want that person who was there from concept to launch. who has accountability. I am sorry but we do not have that. I see people promoted for loosing ideas and are not held accountable. That includes the family.

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Post ID: @xet+19PSzrEA

Keep it short and sweet. The company boom and bust cycles have been directly tied to product innovation that created a net gain for the consumer. In years where the company pushed dated vehicles or tech that hurt the consumer confidence the slide happened. Each time a slide occurred since the 90s, the company never recovered back to where it was before. Why? Because the consumer can choose from like 15-20 other manufacturers, whereas before it was 5. Keep sliding, there will be nothing left.

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Post ID: @cdf+19PSzrEA

I love Ford and I wish them to succeed, that being said the root is about 12 years ago things went south. OP : those are good observations but it's much simpler then several paragraphs. Everything Rises and Falls on leadership.

  1. 2008 to 2010 timeframe began an intense focus on diversity, inclusion, and equality promotions at the expense of everything else.
  2. engineering excellence and true gut experience was displaced by MBA flash and university credentials and certain candidates got the bulk of promotions
  3. Ford had begun to grasp the importance of quality, durability, and reliability but rejected that systematically in terms of features and styling as what the customer wanted. They dont understand continuous improvement.
  4. Management and Leadership degraded proportionately the last several years. Only 3 out of 10 management are worth anything
  5. Since the leadership crumbled, the process and execution crumbled. There is redundancy, sloppy engineering, and just laziness of who should do what
  6. It takes two times longer to do anything that in any reality it should take. That's a result of poor leadership, poor planning, and poor execution.
  7. Ford is not focused on building better Vehicles than the competition.

It builds careers, social equality, now social justice, and the results are the evidence.

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Post ID: @srj+19PSzrEA

The problem starts at the management level. First of all, lack of accountability and control. A lot of processes that no longer work (and are not updated) give the appearance of order, but it takes more time to find the right person to do a task than the task itself. Besides, some people are not doing anything, but kissing @ss, while others work very hard. Guess which are rewarded or promoted and which get SRD or layoff?

Next, the managers select or "design" the technical solutions (with no proper training), instead of the engineers or workers who have been doing the tasks for years. Managers don't listen to the very people hired for their expertise. Therefore, the people with the know how leave the company or wait in silence (and frustration) to pick up the pieces afterwards. Of course, the blame is put on anybody else, but the managers or friends that pushed for the wrong design.

Then add the LL6 rotations and reorgs, where they take the good managers to another position they cannot do properly for lack of training/knowledge, while screwing the area that was working fine before the HR changes.

Upper management don't have a clue of what to do to push the company ahead, so they keep doing reorgs and campaigns (they look good in paper only) that just causes more issues and confusion in the workers, making more meetings (wasting everybody's time) and laying off the good people while keeping the friendly deadwoods.

Just as an example, my team had 5 people, and 2 of them are just dead weight. Still, we hired a contractor, even when those 2 workers don't have anything to do, so now we have 3 guys with no projects. We went from 60% (3/5) to 50% (3/6) productive. And of course, so many LL6s positions that should not exist.

It might take a few more years for this company to go down (brand power, cash, bank loans), but unless there is a radical change in management, it will go down as the Titanic. I am making sure to have a seat in first row to see it, while I listen to the orchestra playing.

Thanks

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Post ID: @lnb+19PSzrEA

@qse+19PSzrEA Completely agree that it starts and ends with the Ford Family. And now we have the next generation stepping up to take control: https://www.autonews.com/executives/fifth-generation-fords-nominated-board-edsel-ford-plans-retire

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Post ID: @zlx+19PSzrEA

@OP 2006ish sounds about right up to around 2004 we were heavy into six sigma and we were laser focused on quality and safety. Then the era of having supervisors and managers who had no clue about the area they supervised/managed hit our group. Many of the workers ignored the new silly directions set by management and valiantly continued to focus on quality and safety. After a few years the silly and foolish management dictates could not be ignored, and quality and safety suffered as a result. The management today is 10 times worse and more clueless than in 2006, so the problems are magnified.

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Post ID: @xrf+19PSzrEA

@xkh-

Not to mention, burned contract people who were treated like trash who will never buy a Ford product. That contract employee gets a nice direct hire job at a supplier, and interacts with other OEMs, like Toyota, and is treated with respect. Where do you think he/she will buy their next vehicle from?

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Post ID: @djw+19PSzrEA

Another view from the supplier side, Ford leans on technical support in design stage with no guarantee of work. Late push for cost reductions most often leads to offshoring. Double impact where no one will ever buy Ford product, offshore supplier employees or burned domestic employees. Had Ford Purchasing say “really hate when this happens but you will not be awarded the business. Thanks for your help.” Like many other companies, Ford is the LAST auto company to see new technology and we have adopted an ABF strategy selling to Anyone But Ford. Let the market slide continue...

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Post ID: @xkh+19PSzrEA

I worked in the studio and if someone with any product development experience with a big enough stick could see that daily operation most could figure out where alot of redundancy and time waiting takes place.

Everyone downstream of Corporate Design was handicapped by the shear inefficiencies that organization created.

In all the years I worked there I never once on any one program witnessed that organization deliver on time. They would then turn and place blame on the engineering teams and create even more chaos.

If it were me I would start there and lop some some big heads off and force Corporate Design to deliver on time.

If they are not capable of deliver exciting products within the time alloted we need a new team.

Something has to change in that end of the process.

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Post ID: @tzr+19PSzrEA

@OP,

"Those who ignore the lessons of history are dammed to repeat them, or at least their rhymes. "

Absolutely true! The panic rush to make last minute cost cutting changes , and then not have the time to have proper validation done in time is a huge problem. The lack of holding the dealerships accountable for the lack of clarity in the warranty claims. There is no way to track the quality issues in the field until it is to late. Lack of accountability at the plants. Lack of "hands on work" with the product is a problem, since almost everything is done by the suppliers. The engineers spend most of their time in meetings talking about talking about the product then actually physically working with the product. This can create an out of touch sense for any issues/problems. It is all the suppliers fault.. but what if the suppliers doesn't place Ford as a priority anymore.. the suppliers have other customers. Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai... etc. I worked at a supplier. If the suppliers see their customer failing, what do think they are going to do?

These issues will be very difficult to change.. it is easier to beat the suppliers and layoff engineers, ignore dealerships submitting BS warranty claims. It is easier to just stay the course and just hope marketing can keep selling vehicles, and just hope shareholders keep buying stock.

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Post ID: @nrm+19PSzrEA

Ford is in the state it is, i.e. will be bankrupt or absorbed by another company because of the Ford family. The stock is structured to always give them control. They seem like nice people, but the company has no visionary, are arrogant, and are stuck in 1960’s ways and thinking. The Board and other executives are too scared to tell the Ford family exactly what they think because they then would be retaliated against. This mindset then trickles down to lower management and employees.

For example, take the train station. Absolute insanity to waste that kind of money to “attract talent.” Ridiculous. The top technology talent from Stanford doesn’t want to work in a climate of clouds and rain 8 months out of the year or live and commute in Detroit only to have their ideas stifled and mocked. Again, dumbest idea ever, but the Board was too scared to speak up and just agreed with another one of Bill Ford Jr. ‘s bad ideas and arrogance.

The Ford family is not creative. They wear their blue suits and play golf in Grosse Pointe Shores (another old “past it’s prime place). Why isn’t Bill Ford Jr. seen flying his drone, working on his creative projects, going on an adventure? Where’s his plasma cutter or 3 D printer? He probably can’t even use Instagram or the old person’s social media, Facebook. Well, again, not trying to be rude, but he has no creativity and is not a visionary. This is the core of the whole Ford problem.

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Post ID: @qse+19PSzrEA

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