They are forced to choose between taking an unknown new position and taking door number 1 - a layoff package. The unknown position could be a people manager, a parallel level technical or program manager assignment, a demotion, or a RIF. So if you don't take the package and get a demotion to an assignment you don't want, you lose. You can quit, but you get no severance package. This is all not necessarily facts - just what I gather from talking to people. It sounds a little crazy.
38 replies (most recent on top)
- aycf
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t eh? Poor TM, welcome to the world you helped create for the induhvidual contributors all these years.
Except, some of us individual contributors setup managers and the business to be measured. I found my business had rotted all the way through, so I punched out. No one would stand, even when a leader would lead. I punched out, just like one of the options TMs had - punch out and refuse to follow the Allied plan of destruction. Our TMs stayed, “to fight the good fight” - but took the bennies while rolling out the cuts.
Leadership has a responsibility to their teams. It comes with the role of Leader in any organization. We learn this in Boy Scouts because it’s basic. From what I hear, .mil teaches it too. Hon management forgot to be leaders long ago. They went the easy route and let the tyrants win. It’s going to rip the company apart, toss the Loyal employees on the trash pile, and weaken the whole country.
Too bad I see Hon as a microcosm of Trumpism.
So, if I'm understanding the general consensus of this thread. TMs are to sacrifice their jobs( either quit or get PIP'd out for not doing their assigned tasks) rather than enforcing policy from above, and if they failed to do that, then they now deserve to be fired for doing their job? so dammed if you do and dammed if you don't? interesting perspective.
Anyway I can't wait for the thread in the coming months about the injustices of a people manager, PIPing and Riffing. should be a good read!
Does it really matter, HI is dumping the T4 &T5 Managers and supervisors for a new structure of with a title of People manager. I do not know what that role is exactly but i highly doubt that the practice of forced outer-elbows on the 9-blocks will stop, and the associated PIPS will be eliminated. It is also highly doubtful that RIFs will be eliminated swell. I think the new structure might even make it easier for a generic manager to meet the numbers as he may not be closely involved in the technical work to bother looking at skill set for the work to be done, only on the metrics given to him to enforce, EEI, vacation, sick.... etc. So for those of you that remain, just remember you too still have a target on you back.
@6bod & @aooo - either masterful trolls or someone that has justified their actions.
If you PIP'ed and fired a performing employee at HW request then you violated common ethics "for the company". Should you have placed this employee on a PIP knowing that they could not successfully complete it then if karma balances there might be a special place for you. If you PIP'ed and fired an older employee for the purpose of replacing with a less senior employee you committed a crime "for the company". You were used for the culpable employee not culpable company ruse.
Now you get to find another job. If you are staying in the same town the local companies are already full of ex HW employees. There is a 99% chance that hiring managers will walk your resume around with the "do you know this guy" question. If you have been square to all then cool. Otherwise, well...
Managers work for the company. They’re not union reps.
I'm not celebrating anything. Managers are supposed to do the right thing for everyone in their charge. That's what hasn't been going on. Don't try to make this about me. Deflection, anger, and denial are all part of a guilty conscience. Goodbye.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Well said!
@6hms,
So you come here and celebrate that T4 &T5 are loosing their jobs and that they deserve it, because they did not do the wright thing for YOU!, they did not give up their job for YOU! what else are you expecting people to do for YOU! When will YOU take responsibility for your actions and live to the standards you expect and demand from others.
I'm not clueless. And I don't need to insult anyone to make my points. I know exactly how this all works. I don't hate anyone. The T4 and T5 management always had a choice: do the right thing or do the wrong thing. There is ALWAYS a choice. Doing the right thing will sometimes cost you something. It will sometimes cost you everything. What are you willing to sacrifice to do the right thing? If everyone in T4 and T5 chose to do the right thing, the right thing would have been done. And now, T4 and T5 are subject to the exact same policies and orders they carried out on the rank and file. I wear no rose colored glasses. Did you really think that TM's like you would be immune form the very policies that you carried out? That's truly clueless.
I wonder if they’ll do it just before the 401k due date so they can save contribution payouts. Exceptionally cruel.
Is the plan to eliminate one layer of management?
What is the timing for the actual change? Volunteer deadline was last week, based on past RIFs it will be 6-8 weeks to get through legal and all the other hurdles. But this doesn't feel like past RIFs
The only thing that matters is when you vote with your feet.
T4 and T5 are the difficult layer where they have complains from below and get orders barked at them from above
It is same everywhere...
It is easy to complain about why the T4 and T5 do not stand up to upper management. How do you know they have not? Some might have and just got overruled.
It is also easy to blame the T4 and T5 to carry out the orders and not leave. Well, how about those us who are complaining? Why aren't we leaving and keep posting complaints?
I have my shares of complaints here and there but I have my reasons to keep working. We all have own reasons. For me, the work itself is still interesting and challenging at times, and there still are good people to work with, regardless of the constant pressures.
Now is the time if anyone is really fed up to find outside employment, before the next recession hits and it will. When that happens the door will be closed. The auto industry has started their waves of layoffs, others are coming and no doubt aerospace industry layoff will be due too
Take stock and due a pros versus cons and decide. Good luck
This company seems to be going the way of GE. On the bright side, maybe someone will buy HI now that the ole horse trader, Cote, is gone.
3@dhm - Congrats 3dhm. I was able to survive my HW career without firing anyone unjustly and now you also...
After Allied took over it took several iterations of managers to find those that would "implement policy" rather than manage, organize, direct and control. People that had gone nowhere in old HW were soon adopting and thriving in the Allied management style. I always wondered who would take a job to start unethically riffing the competent for promotion and money? Well, it is Joe, also that guy over there, and that gal by the copier (could go Godwin's Law on this but will refrain). Anyone that takes a manager's job now would hopefully know what the requirements will be.
The 40 and 50 year old employee with 2 kids in school is the most valuable and oppressed employee and just waiting for that package. After years of not hiring a Director heard of these kids at Google and Apple working 100 hours a week. He went out and hired many expecting the same thing. They left within 6 months. Back to the 40 and 50 year olds.....
There is definitely a mass exodus. Not a week goes by without hearing about people leaving. Teams are bleeding people.
I did not say I agreed with the policy, I left rather than implement unethical behavior from above, but the impact on the org was non existent. My director was all to happy to identify and PIP people. and my replacement was all to happy to delivery those PIPs. what I am say is it the venom and ire directed at the frontline manager is misplaced. New managers coming out of the technical ranks are thinking they can guide the organization with technical leadership and can help to develop next gen people and technology, no where in the interview process or job description does it say must be willing to do the un-ethical.
So now that Honeywell has effectively fired all TMs tell me how much better it will be with people managers (WTF is that anyway) that do not know the work or business.. Oh I'm sure they will be much more focussed on employee well being... LOL
What I am impressed with is the type of employee that continues to work for Honeywell. No matter how highly tightly management turns the screws people just do not leave. yea sure they come to this forum and complain but overall there is no mass exodus besides the RIFS.. and for some people they just seem to dig in, and almost ask for more abuse. really a looks like masochistic behavior.
@3pqu - Given a manager that does not fire per plan will be replaced by one that does. A leader gets a new organizational chart requiring Band 4's to be replaced by Band 3's - when they start the paperwork to railroad the Band 4's out they become part of the cabal. I had 2 managers that quit rather than participate in this. They took their ethics and retired/went to other companies. "Just following orders" is an excuse but one that was nullified 70 years ago. If current managers lived by it they can leave by it. The others surely had seen the writing on the wall.
If you become or stay being a manager then you’re part of the problem. If they can’t find managers to take the job or stay in the job then they’ll need to adjust.
Same goes for the workers. If too many people put up with this then they are accepting and part of the problem.
Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Management and HR only accept one currency. Resignations.
@3jmb
just how clueless are you? I know you hate your manager or supervisor, but do you really think they had ANY choice in the matter about forced 9-block, forced OT, RIF action or any other mandate from the top! As a former TM I can tell you, the word given to me was do it, or you're out as well.
I understand you position, your manager or supervisor was to stand up and say No to executive demands!, and are to sacrifice their employment so that you may continue to wear rose colored glasses.
you need to understand your enemy is at the top DA,TM,& JE. who line their pockets with you efforts, not your TM.
For the most part, T4 and T5 managers didn't stand up to the greedy and clueless slave drivers at the top with official unofficial EEI, outsourcing, layoffs, bad compensation, no opportunity for advancement without politics and/or nepotism, and thinking that burgers on the grill is suitable to improve morale. And now it's their turn to be victims of pi$$ poor management by DA, TM, CE, JE, and the rest of douches in charge. They are now reaping the harvest they planted.
Eventually they will run out of people to cut at the bottom as so many are running for the doors
Dare I say the next re-org reduction to be among the Directors, Senior Directors level. I mean how many of those expensive Dir does Honeywell really need?
Or just outsource them to save 90% of the cost. Probably won't see much difference.
May be the finance guy is already doing a cost/benefit analysis, as we need to keep on reducing cost and cutting a few Dir is probably the same as cutting a while engineering team :-)
Let the pencil sharpening continue
I guess for us normal folks, we'll just hang on until we get a severance. What's the worse that could happen? We just rake in the pay doing as minimal work as possible to bank the severance payouts.
I have to laugh. Few years ago they hit low level employees with layoffs etc which resulted in exodus of experts and people who did something real on low level. I said to myself it would take 5 years until SLT notices that there is one guy actually doing something with 5 bean counters and managers behind his / her back asking for results. Aaaaaand here we go :) Future is what you make it
I've been around for 30+ years, started as a technician to (not up) a manager role. I buffer the ALT HPD 9-block/PIP from my team (not my staff). There are many similar managers who try to manage the EEI, DDLP, YIELD, PIP B.S.. Trust me, I know several Directors and VP's that feel the same way. Why does this matters? This T4/5 ReOrg/RIF will decimate real engineering/technical talent as many of us are technically competent on products. Aero thinks they are simply de-layering management; maybe 30% accurate thinking. Aero also thinks they are solving the "mass exodus" of talent including engineers with less that 5 years tenure; they are departing due to 9-Block/PIP issues; huge mistake (per HR, there is a mass exodus). Or, ReOrg is a simple excuse to RIF (more likely).
For those who think managers are pathetic cool aid drinkers, you are probably 40% accurate. I've argued for 20 years on the destructive 9-Block/PIP issue with leaders and HR; they simply turn the other way. Only T.M. can change it; and there isn't one ALT leader with the B _LLS to approach him.
8 weeks ago JE sends us a People Pulse Survey on whether or not we would recommend Honeywell as a good place to work. What a joke.
Its the HONEYWELL way! Hand off to some unknown! JE’s a wuss! Gonna have greatest motivated management team in a couple weeks! Then we’ll send out ‘the survey again! JE s—s!
Does anybody know why the digital dork made the T4/T5 manager reorg announcement, instead of JE?
I'm not feeling too sorry for the managers, most of them sold their souls to Honeywell and were willing to adhere to the "make people more productive by treating them like **** philosophy of the executive leadershi*. I think my Mgr will survive this, but he's on vacation right now, so he'll really get hit in the face with this news when he gets back.
My manager said this is happening to him. He has to decide by today if he will stay and take a pay cut or take a package and leave. This is really a c-appy thing to do because he's a direct and non-exempt employee that a previous reorganization put him in a position to manage people while still doing technical direct work. Now they want to get rid of that position and change him to exempt salaried. If he takes the package we will be down 4 people by the beginning of the year in our small department that they aren't going to replace.
Most managers are spineless, wont stand up for direct reports or voice opinion when leadership is trying things that aren't right. I was there for 37 years and saw it all. It's finally their turn. Cut them to the bone then see what happens.
The job market is strong, unemployment is low. Depart on your own schedule and avoid their Reamer. Get out of the toxic environment, pursue happiness! Life is too short.
Agree this is just the first round.
Likely they are sitting around tables congratulating each other for making the engineer’s lives “better” ... even if those engineers don’t see it yet ...we know better and just a little more change will move us forward.
Arrogant.
Do your surveys and see if making everyone scared of being fired has helped.
Creating makes people happy.
Focus is required to create.
Change makes people scared.
Scared people can’t focus.
We have already seen one guy convert fear to violent threats.
Stop making people afraid!
Idk. Back in the day managers stood up for their direct reports and walked away from the job if higher management was not reasonable.
Managers that just shove this Honeywell culture relentlessly down people’s throats are just getting what they give.
Really the contestants in this game should be the multitude of directors and VPs. There's a lot more waste there.
The max exodus continues. Nothing new or unexpected. The writing on the wall has been clear for at least a year.
This is the just the beta. #futureshapers! Next up are the rank and file engineers... unless you're a software engineer in a $h1thole country like India or China. What else would you expect from a group of people that would sell their souls for a penny?