Where’s the clown who said they were sure there would be no more layoffs 2025???
36 replies (most recent on top)
I really like this thread - please keep it going. There are some great conversations happening here. I think most of us can agree that we don’t have any ill will toward our coworkers in India or Romania. The ones I’ve worked with are great people. They’re simply put under horrible working conditions, and I hate the idea that they might feel we resent them. At least from my side, that’s not the case at all.
What gets me is the complete disconnect between what leadership preaches and what they actually do. They put on presentations about strategy and direction, but their actions never line up. If they truly practiced what they preached, I could get on board with a lot of it. But they don’t. Instead, leadership is obsessed with saving face and optics.
I honestly don’t think higher leadership knows the reality of what’s happening. If they did, we wouldn’t be making these decisions that are slowly wrecking our infrastructure. They have no idea how bad things are, or how much worse it gets every time more people are quietly laid off. It’s not about competence - it’s about who you know. Some are very good at polishing garbage into something shiny and selling it as a diamond. The only skill you really need is to sound like an executive. And honestly, with ChatGPT, anyone can fake that now. Lipstick on a pig is still a pig.
So keep these conversations alive. Keep talking. This is the stuff that needs to surface to the public…
@1ay It's everything that touches Operations.
@1ay
A valid question. If only mm had strategy and the goals attached to it for that to be answered properly. But they don't do strategy. Its short sighted reactionary, 0 planning, poor future projections.
Let me say this. There have plenty of companies that invested time and money into one product but was able to adjust with the times. or Pivot. Nintendo was a trading card game company when it first started. Nokia was a paper mill company back in the day. Samsung originally traded fish and other korean food products.
@1ax what area of the company needs the most programming and IT improvement ? Is it retirements, life insurance, annuities ? If MM unloaded most of the retirement business to Empower, are many layoffs due to the fact that Empower's equivalent of ETX taking over and causing the residual layoffs at MM ?
To have one layoff in one year is a sign of the economic times.
To have two layoffs in one year is alarming and should signal to everyone to sharpen your individual skills.
To have three layoffs in one year is a professional failure of epic proportions at the highest level within that company.
To have multiple layoffs year after year....
"indicates significant, ongoing business distress, potentially stemming from poor financial performance, strategic missteps, or a restructuring that is failing to find stability.
It suggests that the company is struggling to adapt, potentially facing economic pressures or internal challenges, and that management is in a cycle of cuts without resolving underlying issues."
Research shows that companies that engage in repeated layoffs don't necessarily see long-term financial success and may even experience declines in profitability compared to companies with stable workforces.
Underlying issues cannot and will not be resolved, but hiring in India and Romania seems to be this narrow, tunnel focused solution from mm's temu elon musk.
(no offense to the peoples from India or Romania, you don't deserve to be chosen because you are perceived to be cheaper)
@13p According to mm.com:
"ETX stands for Enterprise Technology & Experience.
In this context, it refers to the division within the company that is responsible for technology, innovation, and enhancing the customer and employee experience.
Key facts about the ETX division at MassMutual include:
Focus on technology The team manages and oversees technology delivery, with a focus on implementing new platforms and improving existing ones.
Impact on business strategy The ETX team helps drive strategic business decisions by using financial data and insights.
Governance and risk The ETX Governance and Risk team works to design effective technology governance and risk management solutions to increase operational efficiency.
Expansion goals The division supports major initiatives, such as revolutionizing the company's worksite business by building a digital-first customer experience."
@12c I work for one right now who I'm worried is next on the layoff list. They were already pushed into a bad spot after a reorg. They haven't been quiet about trying to change the bad strategy and processes. It's going to su-k at the next reorg and layoff if this happens. I don't want to have to move under an ETX manager who doesn't know what they're doing and makes the team miserable because of they agree with the bad tech decisions everyone else makes.
@zx At $130 is $270K per year. $88 is roughly $170K per year. I can't see the average per head for stack at $270K per year with comp and benefits.
@12c My apologies but what does ETX stand for and who are they ? I only work in the call center and don't know this area.
ETX has systematically fired any leader with broad outside experience in tech. Those people call out the cr-p strategy, tech and processes. Insular, circle the wagons, small minded thinking.
@ze How many ETX leaders have only worked at MM? They want to act like they know best but their lack of experience with technology outside of MM is why we're so far behind.
They're the ones who get sold a story from a vendor that knows they can sell anything to these "leaders" who don't understand technology outside of MM's walls. That's how we get multi-million dollar contracts that lead to bad implementations we have to unravel and that end up causing layoffs to account for the wasted money.
@11a
Is all this hiring for MMI, mm's way of saying out loud their products are cheap and subpar? Is this their way of saying "we do not need top notch performers"?
After spending all that money to make fan pier the place to be?
its so odd. it comes across like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
For example this recent layoff of 60 people. mm had the capital to use on buying supplies, tech, and designing half a floor for those 60+ people plus some added conference rooms only to let them go in sept.
this back and forth.
Spend money only to waste it.
If you knew they weren't going to be a part of mm for long why bother wasting money you claim to not have?
It is a mix like anywhere else. You need to pay a bit higher than market rates to get better talent. Great talent can be found anywhere. If you buy cheap, you get cheap.
@zx
Asking in earnest an I do not mean to offend anyone with Indian heritage, background, ethnicity etc.
Is the quality of Tech or IT from India bad? Is it subpar? And what makes it not as great as hiring someone from the states regardless of their background, race, etc? Is it education, experience? I'm trying to make sense of the rush to hire outside of the states.
$88 number is BS. It’s been the same for 14 years. The real fully loaded cost is $130ish. Tarriffs would erode savings but it’ll be 4:1 rather than 6:1 staff costs. Won’t change anything at 25%. Needs to be over 100% to eliminate the cost arbitrage. Fully loaded in India is $20/hour. $43 in Romania.
You can’t really blame MM, IT leadership there has always been clueless. Add former call center reps to the mix as IT managers and the influx of cheap H1-B Indian tech workers who are subpar at best and usually on extended leave having swarms of kids. Too expensive and way cheaper to ship the jobs offshore.
All jobs that aren’t automated are going overseas at every company. It’s happening faster here because the tech infrastructure is so garbage it’s worth the risk. They have to pay for that sign at Fenway somehow, firing tech workers is a no brainer.
Don’t be offended by anything other than how disingenuous they are. MM is not special. The ELT is there to enrichen themselves and the board and that’s what they will do.
@xg what is MM's annual spend for all IT ? Hope many people does MM employee (W2 employees) in IT related functions and how many contractors are there from India or other countries ?
@vh MM rates all US employees regardless of role or title at $88/hour when they do cost-benefit analysis for staffing. MMI rates are $10 - $35 and MMR $30 - $65, but most MMI/MMR are on the low and middle end.
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers, but those are true tech industry rates. MM's actual rates for tech staffing are lower. There's no developer at MM who is making even close to $160/hour. That's closer to a SLT salary than an IC dev.
@mx "In the US, the full stack developer costs range between $80 to $160 per hour, whereas developers from Eastern Europe or India charge between $30 to $90 per hour. And full time salaries could vary anywhere from $80,000 and $140,000 annually, with higher compensation for senior developers."
So yes its cheaper than the USA but with added tariffs maybe not.
Tariffs will only cause more US layoffs because even a 50% increase on outsourcing is still going to be cheaper than US employees. They hire MMI at like $10-$12/hour and can get 7-8 MMI employees for the cost of 1 US employee. Even their higher rates for senior employees are only $20-$22/hour.
Increasing that to $15 or $30 because of a tariff still gets MM 5-6 junior or 3-4 senior in employees in MMI for every one US employee.
There’s no way a tariff is going to stop outsourcing. Not when it’s so cheap.
@kp Than MM will just stop w the MMI shenanigans, let them go and hire more in MMR
All this instead of being open to real tech changes internally, hiring competent staff, and stop advocating for so many siloes.
@kf This was in the Times of India on 9/3. Trump is gonna crackdown on IT India outsourcing. It's just a matter of time.
$$$$$$$$
Is Trump trying to punish India's prized IT sector next?
The US, after imposing high tariffs on exports from India, is considering taxes on its IT services and tech workers. The buzz of taxing foreign remote workers comes amid the crackdown on the H-1B visa programme, a mainstay of India's tech companies. Trump is threatening a sector that is central to India's economy and global standing.
After imposing steep tariffs on Indian goods, the US seems to be exploring a new front: potential tariffs on IT services, foreign remote workers, and outsourced business processes. Coupled with proposals to overhaul the H-1B visa system, and an increased levy on remittances made by Green Card holders and temporary visa workers, the move points to a broader strategy that could constrain India's most significant export engine: its human resources, including its engineers, coders, and students—who sustain both Silicon Valley and the ITES bo-m in the US.
The debate gained traction when conservative commentator Jack Posobiec posted on X that "all outsourcing should be tariffed" and that foreign countries must "pay for the privilege of providing services remotely to the US the same way as goods."
He added that the approach could be applied "across industries, levelled as necessary per country."
The post was later reposted by Senior Counsellor for Trade and Manufacturing, Peter Navarro, indicating that these ideas are resonating with the most powerful in the White House.
Yall realize H1-B restrictions and Tariffs don't affect GCC/ODC like MMI ?? That was the point of building MMI and MMR instead of continuing to outsource. What we really need is for HIRE Act to pass but given how much influence big tech has that ain't gonna happen
@jf It’s comIng…
@fn It would be karmic if those tariffs go ahead and MM and places like MM wind up paying that cost that almost equals all the people they fired to be replaced by MMI. It would be too good.
@g5 To be fair thats a person who has his ties made out of the country and rarely keeps it as American as he claims.
Its just lip service to placate certain folks. If he wants to do something, he could make it a lot more difficult to get an H1B visa, for instance. This is just shifting the burden to act from himself to companies so he can blame them when nothing gets done.
I for the life of me, do not understand why mm just doesn't pause on hiring until the end of the year or until spring of next.
Readjust if need be, make more "org changes". And work with the staff you do have.
Stop hiring mediocre people, stop allowing people to fail upward, stop giving promotions or allowing lateral moves to people who aren't qualified for the role.
Create career ladders or something people can aim towards to have a promotion or make them knowledgeable for a career change. People in Ops or the call center for example who want to have a diff role is great. It should be encouraged, but backed up with the right education and training, and experience for that role.
What about the outsourcing to South Africa? Clients must love that! I'd love for Trump to penalize the company for not keeping it's AMERICAN workforce!!
@ew They will after the Supreme Court rules that Trumps "emergency" tariffs are legal and a 50% tariff is imposed on India. That and the Indian President holding hands with Putin and that doesn't bode well with the expansion of relationship and contracts with Indian companies or Indians in general.
@ef ETX leaders know Springfield ETX workers have nowhere else to go that pays them six figures and good benefits for no actual tech experience. Look how many people work in ETX and their background is MM Operations, call center or help desk.
Remember when MM was trying to make Boston their new tech hub because they couldn’t get any skilled tech workers in Springfield? They realized quickly that actual tech experience means people want more money and will point out how bad MM is with technology and how behind our competitors we are.
They know springfield people won’t quit so they’ll always have people around to work 60 hour weeks and say yes to anything leaders want in ETX. That’s why they can get away with this. Because they still have a location where people will put up with it.
Wasn’t this already planned after the first layoffs of haven people in January? The date was always whenever the haven platform work was going to end
They went with a new underwriting platform in June. They’d rather pay Salesforce five times the price it would cost to keep the employees and put them on other teams. The Romania team is for the Salesforce work.
Do you ever notice that the Indians never get laid off?
@ba
60 people? That is a crazy amount of people when they were a small org to begin with. They already had their layoffs earlier this year. Which is why they had (have) a romania team.
What is going on with the instability and job security in ETX? How can anyone trust what is being said from the C Suite about the company's growth, goals, strategy? How can employees stay productive and align with what appears to be financial distress, poor leadership and disfunction?
All points to serious systemic issues rather than standard business adjustments. It is time to look into a different business and perhaps industry for my professional growth with a better dependable company.
@bg i doubt they are affected
@ba there was a team in romania that was a part of ex-haven tech. I wonder if they were let go too.
Pretty much all ex-HavenTech people, except few products folks. Roughly 60 people are affected.
Would you be willing to share which departments? I had the last few days off.