I've been at 3M for a little over a year now. I work in division but I came from a very technical background so I do some of the work that CRSL people do.
However, I do not have a PhD and in some of my interactions, I distinctly feel that some of these guys in CRSL really look down on others?
Is this all in my head or do others also feel the same way?
Oh yeah? The previous CRL VP/SVP didn't have a PhD.
Alright my experience with almost 20yrs in Lab.
Snooty PhDs - individual contributors - nah. Many of them I wouldn’t have even known they were PhDs unless it came up for some weird reason. EXCEPT for the current data scientists. Which is really strange - a PhD data scientist working for 3M is swallowing some major humble pie, because the best go to Google, AWS, etc. working for 3M, of all places, is a downer.
PhDs who are on management track - have definitely seen my fair share of snooty ones. Worst were manager/directors who would favor the PhDs among their direct reports for kudos and even higher annual ratings.
And good luck getting a lab head position in 3M without a PhD……
I have been with 3M Germany for almost 2 decades working in division R&D roles exclusively. Saw several people coming from corporate R&D groups into the divisions I worked in, some directly into management roles. Yes, there definitely is a tendency to look down on non-PhDs especially under younger corporate PhDs with lesser work experience. I even had a lab manager who made a distinction btw. engineers and PhD chemists on department org charts. In my impression this tendency is not as pronounced with more senior researchers, especially the ones that have seen the "good old times" in 3M, where culture was more colaborative and hands on.
I worked there for over 25 years worked with ALOT of PhD’s all over the company and found most to be very easy to work with. Guys in certain divisions were usually the je-ks and happy to steal ideas and present them as there own but I found the PhD’s always gave credit or at least shared credit with their coworkers
I guess the answer depends on what you mean, exactly...
I'm certain the technical skills can be learned on the job. For most jobs, I don't think there's really any specific degree that makes a significant difference in your ability to do it. Even the skills for something like an attorney or accountant role are things that you could learn without going to school for it (although good luck getting that job without being licensed).
But if you're doing research and inventing, the education you'll get during a graduate program is invaluable. That's harder to pick up on the job, because work is about doing and producing, whereas a PhD program is about reading and learning and refining your understanding.
Solution: fire all non-PhD at t3 and above. Irrespective of in division or crl
I ran across someone from ME who thought his p**p smelled pretty good. Non PhD. He was one of the first cuts after Covid.
Great thread here. Has to be the best discussion of 2025 so far! Learned a lot.
Yes, the skills can be attained on-the-job. After about 5 years of full-time lab experience a good BS can more-or-less match a new PhD. (Guess how long a PhD takes?)
Side story: Knew a guy once upon a time, a manager in CRL, who jokingly called himself trainer of PhDs. He led a group of mostly new PhDs and spent a lot of his time getting them up to speed after grad school. Even the newly minted doctors needed to be trained, just like me and everyone else.
Please get a mentor who is non- PhD and high level scientist. Talk to them about how they moved in their career. Don’t worry about who treats you badly, try to take care of your career and do the best you can. When I mean high level scientists it’s not the Chief science advocates type who writes books. But somebody who has worked and launched products. On the CRSL side, many new engineers want to be in Mega 7 companies and they might like their positioning here. So don’t worry. Do your job.
My own experience with condescending folks was more a matter of personality than of education level. The very worst were clearly bachelors degree folks with a lot of time in their respective position (division folks). I never experienced condescension from phDs, so much as navigating their different personalities. Some would put themselves at your level to answer your questions while others spoke from the stratosphere.
I’m the original poster and I really appreciate all the answers. These are things I could never ask out loud.
I like to ask if you believe that someone without a pHD can also attain enormous technical skill attained through a graduate program
I believe and can demonstrate but I’m anonymous. Some PhD people I’ve met really do value me at 3m but I’ve also met other PhD people who started off decided to be condescending.
Thank you.
I've engaged with many within CRL (CRML, CRAL and CRSL), and the title or lack thereof did not matter at all. I wasn't pulling rank with them and they were not pulling rank with me. It was so nice to just discuss the areas of expertise and go into the details, without having to worry about the politics etc.
I've been in final promo decision meetings. At least in those, degree levels never came up. Not once.
That's absolute cr-p. After 36 years at 3M, and 22 in CRL, I never saw anybody call anyone "Dr". Within CRL, between CRL and Division, or anything else. Just not done.
Now, with regard to external interactions, sometimes titles would be used, especially some more formal counties.
The reality is mixed, some absolutely do look down on the non-PhD crowd, many do not. Back in the day, there absolutely was a corporate "PhD police" that would review and attempt to influence the organization to deny any promotion requests to T6/T7s for those that did NOT have a PhD. Not sure if this still exists, many of the internal network influence groups atrophied in the past 5 years.
Humans play status games. You see the same things on the management side of the scale. Just ask anyone who would just so happen to wear a Cornell lanyard around the quad instead of the 3M ones that everyone else would wear. Ditto for the Wonewok swag you used to see people wearing around the office. One must really be a big deal around mother mining if they're wearing their Cornell lanyard and their Wonewok swag! Extra credit if they have the PhD in their email signature. It's simply human nature...some people will be REALLY in to those things, others will not. The corporate labs are as such.
@bq the doctor stuff is mostly confined to CRL where the PhD chemists and engineers how practically zero people skills and can't interact with customers or employees in manufacturing.
The business aligned PhD seem to be more down to earth.
It's no doubt the CRL "doctors" insist on being called such. Trying calling one person Dr. SMITH and the other plain old JOE. You will get coached on addressing your superiors better.
As a former retired PhD, I would say the difference you encounter with CRL PhDs is as follows: they are not exposed to customers and solving practical problems. They are more focused on technology building, patent protection and learning the science behind it and work with long term solutions. With you coming from division ( whether PhD or not) are more practical with customer problems that need a fix. So the planes don’t intersect and there is miscommunication. Try to take the scientist to the customer and let him listen - he or she will understand you.
@ca too bad everyone has moved from VCRs to digital. Probably the same for your PhD area of focus. Still working on mag media?
@cx given just about everyone at the "distinguished" McKinsey and Kearney have MBAs and then come in arrogantly proclaiming they have "solutions" to what ails 3M, solutions involving cutting jobs and slashing benefits, I concur that an MBA is a license for arrogance
I’ve encountered more people who have a master’s degree/MBA and are insufferable than the PhD’s. Most of the PhD folks don’t even have it in their signature
In my entire 3M career I met precisely zero people who have insisted or even asked to be addressed as 'doctor'. CRL, division, big b... It just didn't happen.
Bragging about your education is one strike against you. Going to Harvard is two strikes against you. Move on now, you won’t last here at all.
Well as a Harvard grad, my education is far superior than university of Minnesota… so yeah, there’s that
I'm a PhD scientist in CRSL and I certainly don't insist on bring called doctor. I would not be surprised if some people in my lab do tend to look down on people who they consider to be "below" them though. For a couple of years, we've been dealing with leadership and a few other folks who absolutely don't understand how to value people of different backgrounds. I'm very curious if you can give any more details about who these folks are, because I'd be interested in using this in my communication with corporate leadership about changing our lab leadership.
I have a doctorate, but I'm not in a research role.
But we need to stop pretending that the PhD is just a pointless decoration, and anyone who thinks that clearly has jealousy issues.
The difference between a PhD and a BS is the difference between being able to program your VCR and being able to build a VCR. There's a vast amount of technical knowledge that's imparted during a graduate program, and at the end that person will be an expert in their field.
That's not to say that people without graduate degrees aren't smart or aren't necessary for the business. But saying things like "the degree is just a piece of paper" or that people pursue a PhD because they couldn't get a job or because they need to feed their ego just showcases ignorance.
Division Ph.D. here. I spent over a decade in CRPL before moving to a division. No one I worked with ever insisted on being addressed as "doctor". Many Ph.D.s I know at 3M don't even put their title on their business cards or email signatures. The most capable ones are typically humble and very easy to work with. Maybe you have a very limited experience with a very limited sample of Ph.D. scientists.
CRL PhD type here… I have never witnessed anybody addressing anyone else as Doctor or request that of anyone else. The more ‘intelligent’ the person (regardless of degree) the more eccentric the personality.
That being said, we all think CRSL people are weirdos who think we can do away with all the scientists and just replace them with FEA modeling or some AI BS.
Quite a few 3M PhD types insist on being called "Doctor" even though they are clearly not a true Dr. The ego trips are enormous. Ironically many went to grad school because they couldn't find jobs with their Bachelor's degree. They often have bland personalities (which is why they failed to get jobs with Bachelor's) and snooty attitudes toward the working men and women they enslave.
It's best to get one's head down and let these deranged egomaniac types go off on their ego trips whilst the masses fight for a few extra dimes to feed the family.
McKnight would not approve of their haughty behaviour.