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Sorry, I misspoke. small correction: the retired devs [with
advanced degrees] are going to come save us?
No, no, no. You have it all wrong. There are plenty of people with advanced degrees (like MBAs) that remain. THEY will save you.
"Ummm. What?"
Sorry, I misspoke. small correction: the retired devs [with advanced degrees] are going to come save us?
Back on topic: you better get to the office if you want your window, your ipo, your dignity. people, even some with advanced degrees (no ivies though), so I hear, are losing windows. total sadness on campus: cold mashed potatoes; tepid oatmeal with no butter (does my floor have a working microwave, for which I beg). but they, the soft-handed algorithm makers -- the forgotten stewards occupying conference rooms and parking spots (fewer than 2 days a week though), now have more wall space to showcase their abilities to generate possible revenue streams.
sounds like some fundamental misunderstanding of what customers actually mostly did/do using sas, as well as any other analytics software
No doubt, yet there are still a significant number of salaries being paid from revenue generated by SAS analytic/stat etc. PROCs. It took PhD’s to build these analytics, and that was the original point. Pretty sure BASE SAS contains some basic stat PROCs developed by people with at least masters degrees in applied math or hard-core statistics.
In many customer scenarios, is it not the case that BASE SAS language and access components/products significantly function to acquire and shape data ultimately sent to Analytical procedures?
A decade or so ago, JG boasted that SAS held 37% of the advanced analytics market; more than SAS’ next 7 competitors combined. No disrespect to BASE SAS as the required foundational product for all SAS analytics, but I don’t think that market share came simply from customers using BASE SAS + Access Engines, etc.
Once again, when it comes to SAS analytics—THANK analytics PhDs. Without their work over the past nearly 50 years, would SAS as a company have anything approaching the relevance it grew to and enjoyed at the height of its success? Or, tho in sad decline, what remains of its relevance today?
"No, it matters a lot because a significant portion of SAS’ historical and ongoing revenue stream is due to analytical methods, procedures and (tho to a lesser degree) the advanced analytics implemented in CAS actions."
A certain amount of copium being displayed here. Dollars to donuts you can take the lifetime value of Base SAS and all the Access Engines and have a significantly more significant portion of SAS's value stream. Throw in Graph, Connect, AF and FSP and its game over. The historical value in SAS was not only its analytics, but at how well it could access and manipulate data from anywhere. Been there and got the Base SAS Rocks denim shirt to show for it!
@5ceo+1uxO1ikT "...The original revenue streams created by people with advanced degrees are in decline. Therefore SAS needs significant new revenue streams..."
It will also help for SAS to resume actively selling those older products to people who WANT to buy them, instead of disincentivizing the sales teams.
Partly because most of the talent of either type of degree (or none) has been out there doing other, bigger things
I return to my previous point. The original revenue streams created by people with advanced degrees are in decline. Therefore SAS needs significant new revenue streams. But neither the four- year folks nor the advanced degree folks have achieved this.
seems to be a lot of hubris by the advanced degree and non-advanced degree folks here, coming from nobody on the level of the researchers on that last list, as far as we know. but if a company can get by on the "B" level below that, give me the people who at least know what they don't know
Better yet:
https://www.mygreatlearning.com/blog/ai-researchers-and-leaders/#top-12-AI-leaders-and-researchers
Asked and answered:
https://www.mygreatlearning.com/blog/ai-researchers-and-leaders/#:~:text=Yann%20LeCun%20is%20a%20computer,that%20uses%20convolutional%20neural%20networks.
There are plenty of people with four-year degrees, and in some cases, not even in hard-core computer science, electrical engineering, etc., who have grown fantastic software development careers, and can solve a lot of difficult problems very well.
In rare cases, there are folks who don’t have a degree who can do these things, simply because they are gifted with a lot of natural intelligence and the discipline to learn on their own or through being mentored, etc..
However, there are certain disciplines within software development that require such a geometrically large foundation for thinking, understanding and reasoning, that it’s very difficult (nearly impossible for most humans) to attain this with just a four year degree. A quick survey will likely find that most top ML and AI developers in the world have advanced degrees, many of them in very hard subjects that give them very heavy mathematical reasoning skills.
@5tkt+1uxO1ikT “ A four year degree doesn’t count for much of anything. Might as well have taken a coding bootcamp.”
Sounds like someone has an advanced degree.
Put me and you in a room with a complicated programming/engineering problem and I’ll take my chances with my 4 year degree.
Been in rooms with more advanced degrees than I can count. Hold my own just fine.
“How many of the analytical procedures and CAS actions at SAS do you think were designed, coded or tested by people having only with 4 year degrees?”
A four year degree doesn’t count for much of anything. Might as well have taken a coding bootcamp.
To be clear, the market has strong interest in “that stuff”. Unfortunately for SAS, most of it is now available in free / open source software.
SAS failed to create new revenue streams that did not compete with FOSS. So now a declining revenue stream pays a declining number of salaries. Hence we get layoffs.
No, it matters a lot because a significant portion of SAS’ historical and ongoing revenue stream is due to analytical methods, procedures and (tho to a lesser degree) the advanced analytics implemented in CAS actions. Whether you currently work for SAS, or retired after many years, _THANK_ a PhD who worked on STAT, OR, ETS, ML, MODEL, …., etc., because the current revenue resulting from their labors paid/pays a significant chunk of your salary.
"How many of the analytical procedures and CAS actions at SAS do you think were designed, coded or tested by people having only with 4 year degrees? Very few if any."
Doesn't matter when the market has no interest in that stuff. Sad but true.
Doubtful you ever worked with these folks. I did for years as well as others in their orbit outside of SAS. How many people in the world with an only a four-year degree are qualified to design, code, test and validate some of the most advanced ML and AI algorithms and methods on the planet?
Do you think Google DeepMind or OpenAI is mostly staffed and lead by people with only four year degrees? Think again!
How many of the analytical procedures and CAS actions at SAS do you think were designed, coded or tested by people having only with 4 year degrees? Very few if any. Virtually all have PhD‘s in the specialty or a true scientific or engineering doctorate of similar rigor.
Simply having an advanced degree does not necessarily indicate that somebody is going to be stellar at what they do. there are plenty of people doing rigorous software development and even other engineering who only possess a four year degree, and some cases not even directly in a subject corresponding to the field they work in.
However, there are some fields and specialties, where the amount of required knowledge obtained through rigorous learning is very difficult-to-impossible to get any other way. At least for most people, because very few have the discipline to do this level of steady over the very protracted necessary timeframe nor the humility to have their work validated by others with proven expertise.
“All with advanced degrees, some post docs, etc..”
I’ve been less far from impressed with most advanced degrees people. I mean some have been good but most don’t live up to the billing unless you are after academic vs practical skills.
Give me someone intelligent who went to school 4 years all day long.
… to offer higher salaries and equity…
Five years ago, SAS R&D had a half-dozen of the best ML/AI developers to be found anywhere. All with advanced degrees, some post docs, etc.. Many were still fairly young. This is a skill set that takes years to form and cultivate. They all left for 2X to 5X the money they were being paid at SAS. Several OG analytics and systems-level developers are also gone for similar reasons. Collectively this group represented a couple thousand years of deep tribal knowledge in the history of development of all aspects of SAS products.
This group of approximately 100 devs rivaled the best at most West Coast startups or big tech companies. Although much good talent remains at SAS, it is foolish to think that the loss of this development talent has not had a significant impact on the companies ability to innovate, especially to recast Viya and get it moving forward over the past 5 years.
Lack of a correct and more progressive product vision as well as the refusal of JG to offer that salaries and equity are at the heart of why this functionally irreplaceable group Is gone. The same reasons or why it will be nearly impossible for SAS to hire (or rehire) and retain the talent that could turn things around.
“The sad decline of SAS was not anticipated.”
Seriously? I spent at least the last ten years concerned about the decline of SAS. That was a significant factor in my accepting the VRBP offer in 2021.
And BTW I’m not exactly Nostradamus over here.
“Sure, as long as it can be done in a data step and doesn't have any strings longer than 200!”
You’re way behind, the 200 limit was the old days
"Enough good devs remain at SAS to build anything that’s wanted."
Sure, as long as it can be done in a data step and doesn't have any strings longer than 200!
SAS paid my mortgage, for which I’m gratified 🙏
But I wish my work had made me satisfied. 😔
The sad decline of SAS was not anticipated. 😥
Reports of Boomer wealth are much exaggerated! 💳
It was never a dev problem.
Enough good devs remain at SAS to build anything that’s wanted.
“the retired devs are going to come save us? are u all retired?”
Ummm. What?
the retired devs are going to come save us? are u all retired?
@3elt+1uxO1ikT Whether being supremely kind or brutally honest no one can easily answer what percentage of people at SAS have been phoning it in.
You can use intuition which may or may not be right.
In reference to the Elon email from : @3wtv+1uxO1ikT
No matter their remote, hybrid, or full-time in the office status, being brutally honest what percentage of SAS employees are currently or have been “phoning it in” for a significant duration of time?
Elon has also created 1000s of employee millionaires and done so in less time then it often takes to get promoted at SAS — certainly to get promoted to a higher level title. Also very true at most growing big tech companies as well as many others.
The point is that CEOs promote based on feelings, not on productivity.
We do still love it. because of what it used to be. But SAS will not change. They’ve had plenty of time.
In R&D, they'll continue promoting people who say “yes” but don’t know how to build software. Then they'll ask Sales and Marketing to sell and market that software, and the wi’ll do the best they can.
A “hard-core” plan could work; it absolutely could. I’d come out of retirement to help, if that were happening. But it’s not; it won’t.
We all need to move on.
When a company is actively looking to be sold it maintains status quo and lets the buyer make those personnel decisions.
If the buyer doesn’t also purchase the SAS campus real estate (and why would they?), you’re more likely to be UAH (unemployed at home) than forced to RTO 5 days a week
Elon has spoken.
He is basically 25x wealthier than JG and achieved this at a much higher velocity and in less than half the time.
Elon has done several biz ventures successfully (while there is that matter of X, he has still done many other things right) in far less time than SAS rose and now falling.
JG and SAS could learn a lot from Elon’s “hard-core“ mentality and follow thru. At this point it’s the only thing that could save SAS, the company so many of us were instrumental in building, and that we still love.
From: Elon Musk
Subject: To be super clear
Everyone at Tesla is required to spend a minimum of 40 hours in the office per week. Moreover, the office must be where your actual colleagues are located, not some remote pseudo office. If you don't show up, we will assume you have resigned.
The more senior you are, the more visible must be your presence. That is why I lived in the factory so much - so that those on the line could see me working alongside them. If I had not done that, Tesla would long ago have gone bankrupt. There are of course companies that don't require this, but when was the last time they shipped a great new product? It's been a while.
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Tesla has and will create and actually manufacture the most exciting and meaningful products of any company on Earth. This will not happen by phoning it in.
Thanks,
Elon
"80% of CEOs say they’d rather promote an in-person employee over a remote worker."
I feel that I am as productive remotely as I am in the office --- and I put in more hours from home. Also, of the people that I work with, the smartest and hardest working person is fully remote and the biggest slacker goes to the office almost every day. But that is obviously not even close to conclusive. Would love to see true stats on this, if it were possible to measure accurately.
80% of CEOs say they’d rather promote an in-person employee over a remote worker.
https://fortune.com/2024/09/18/ceos-rather-promote-in-person-employee-over-remote-worker-rto/
@1abw+1uxO1ikT Get 2. You can afford it.
and the chocolate chip cookies in the cafe are only a fraction of their former size