Thread regarding Boeing Co. layoffs

The Economics That Made Boeing Build The 737 Max Deathtrap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfNEOfEGe3I
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Boeing’s Washington State Engineers
Are the Frau Blucher’s of Boeing, they are literally trained in Enumclaw
Before they hose anything in-house
https://youtu.be/gv1Oi3K1vN0

Seriously folks, what is it that engineers in WA do?

According to the comments below, all designs are done by India, CEOs, South Carolina and St Louis. What are these engineers in WA responsible for?

@5aqa+1cnYTFw3

The CEO of Boeing at the time would not approve a new aircraft program for a 737 replacement. The engineers in preliminary design only option was to come up with a 737 derivative that would address the pitch issue caused by the engine placement which is how they are MCAS system came about. It was a direct result of the direction from the CEO at Boeing.

The reason the blame is being pointed at $10 an hour programmers in India is because who would program an MCAS system and not address the possibility of a faulty air data probe which might cause the airplane to do a nose dive. Any reasonable programmer would want to address that possibility and kick the MCAS system off in the event of a faulty air data probe reading.

But asking $10 an hour computer programmers in India to troubleshoot your avionics system is beyond their scope. When you pay people that little in order to show any kind of a profit they’re going to do it as quickly as possible and expect you to address any problems with how the system operates.

How can a reasonable person want to blame union engineers in the Pacific Northwest for design work that was done by either suppliers or design centers in different parts of the United States?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-finds-debris-in-wing-fuel-tanks-of-parked-737-maxs-orders-all-to-be-inspected/%3Famp%3D1

How do you explain this one too?

Oh wait here is one excuse, Wichita engineers screwed the fuselage up!! Oh wait they are SPEEA too!!!!!

Lol

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-tanker-jets-grounded-due-to-tools-and-debris-left-during-manufacturing/%3Famp%3D1

Did McNerney or Muilenburg ordered mechanics to leave tools behind?

Oh no wait, India engineers did something wrong and caused this.

Oh no wait, St Louis engineers designed a narrow fuselage and fat union mechanics could not get in.

Boeing defends its Dreamliner plant in North Carolina
after report says it was plagued by ‘shoddy production’
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3007049/boeing-defends-its-dreamliner-plant-north-carolina
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why Are Airlines Refusing 787s From Charleston S.C. Plant?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1zm_BEYFiU

@5aqa+1cnYTFw3 --- Deaf, Dսmb and as Stսpid as they come

First it was India engineers now the CEO, hahahahaahahahaha

Oh boy everybody is to blame except overpaid project managers in WA.

I never said that new engineers or mechanics are better than older ones, my point is essentially that even older more experienced engineers don’t have the technical skills required to build complex machines like an airplane since all that work has been delegated to suppliers. This was confirmed below.

By the way show me numbers and proof that Charleston airplanes are worse than Everett airplanes. Also please include the many tags and issues the Tanker has had which is built by union mechanics.

@OP+1cnYTFw3

You are the poster child for why experienced mechanics and engineers do not like training inexperienced new hires. You think you know everything and can’t learn anything from older employees.

Why are you so adamant about blaming union engineers for designs that they didn’t not work on?

The MCAS system was pushed by the CEO at the time Jim McNerney. The majority of the engineers and managers wanted a new airplane design.

They knew it was time for a 737 replacement. A larger engine more forward of the wing for ground clearance Causing the nose to pitch was just a bad design from the beginning. It was time to replace an airplane that had been originally designed in the 1960s. But Jim McNerney wanted to spend millions on stock buybacks to enrich himself and the board. You can paint that however you want but that’s the truth.

And now for the third time, if these new mechanics and engineers right out of school are so much better, why do airplanes built in Charleston have hundreds more MRB tags than the airplanes that were built in Everett? It’s a very simple question that you have refused to answer now three times.

So you just admitted that union engineers only manage suppliers and not do any real engineering but somehow I am supposed to be convinced that they have knowledge?

Regarding MCAS, you keep blaming $10 an hour software engineers in India however the showing of compliance including any DFMEA analysis is in charge of UNION engineers and the incompetent FAA was never in the loop about a safety critical system that had a single point of failure.

Your post confirms what I saw at Boeing, people with 0 technical knowledge and lack of awareness of how things are certified.

 @4hso+1cnYTFw3
Good Post. Lived through all you wrote about. 787 total cluster f@#$. I belive it was the McDonnell Douglas leaders/managers at Boeing that pushed the outsoucing of 787.

@3zzj+1cnYTFw3

The programming for MCAS was done by $10 an hour programmers in India. They programmed it into the flight management system.

The decision to only have input from one air data probe appears to have been driven by sales who wanted to charge customers for a second air data probe. The point was having experienced engineers programming this, they would have red flagged this as high risk and bad design. I don’t think anyone except for maybe you would expect $10 an hour programmers to identify these kind of high risky decisions.

Most of the engineers who are left in Washington state are and we’re primarily doing supplier management and integration or final assembly installations. Very little detail design was done on the 787 program in Everett.

Outside of the composite wing box on the 777X most of the engineering was done by design centers in Moscow, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Charleston etc. On the 787 the majority of the engineering was done by the suppliers for detail design. So you wanting to point the finger at union engineers when they do very little outside of the final installation drawings just indicates your ignorance.

For comparison the original 777 the majority of the detail design was done by engineers in Washington. In order to save money they claimed on a development program they outsourced the majority of the 787 to suppliers to share the upfront costs. Of course they had millions and millions of dollars to spend on stock buybacks doing the same time.

My suggestion to you is maybe you should actually listen to people with 20 or 30 years experience instead of assuming you know more than they do.

Oh I see so now all designs are done by people outside Puget Sound. What the heck do union engineers work on?

Let me clarify one more thing, India programmers don’t work with MCAS architecture and they did not come up with the stupid idea of designing a safety critical system with single point of failure. Indian programmers certainly did not submit falsified cert plans to the FAA.

Let me clarify another little detail for you, 777X’s Common Core system is not designed by India or St Louis, it is being designed in Puget Sound. Stop blaming other people for your own mistakes.

Engineers with true knowledge left the union long time ago. The ones there now are a bunch of project managers who do 0 engineering.

@3vmr+1cnYTFw3

The 777X detail design was not done by Union engineers unless you think Moscow, St. Louis, Charleston, Philadelphia etc have an engineering union. What was not outsourced to partners like spirit. everyone already knows that except for you apparently.

The tanker engineering was done by BDS engineers Outside Puget sound. The problems with the cost overruns are not due to MRB tags on that program, But due to late engineering and redesign. Is everyone knows except for you apparently.

The MCAS system Was outsourced to computer programmers in India who were making 9 or $10 an hour. The concept was flawed from the beginning but it was pushed by the CEO to avoid having to replace the 737, as everyone knows except for you apparently.

Again, if the young mechanics engineers are better, then why do the 787 airplanes built in Charleston have literally hundreds more MRV tags than the ones built in Everett? Simple question. And why would the company move the entire line to Charleston when the assembly line in Washington was more efficient and had better quality? Everyone knows the answer to that except for you apparently.

You want to talk about quality, tags, NCRs? All right tell me what’s going on with the Tanker? Those are assembled by union folks, “more experienced” guys.

Talk to me about the senior union engineers who designed MCAS.

Talk to me about the senior union engineers that designed the 777X who is now doing uncommanded pitch events…

You want me to keep going?

@2qtt+1cnYTFw3

You claim that you did not see any one over age 40 who contributed anything.

Why do all the 787 assembled in Charleston have hundreds more MRAB tags then airplanes assembled in Everett Washington?

You claim the older engineers and mechanics don’t contribute anything then why were those airplanes assembled Everett have so many fewer MRB tags? The mechanics and engineers in Charleston are much much younger and less experienced than the ones in Everett. And the direct result of that was hundreds more MRV tags to the point that some customers refused to take assembly of the airplane if it was assembled in Charleston?

You claim the company doesn’t discriminate on the basis of age. Then why would you take the assembly line which was more productive and had better quality, why would you move that assembly line to Charleston were quality is worse?

They did it because they want to lay off the majority of the engineers and mechanics in Washington because they’re older and they are paid more.

You talk about people speaking on things which they have no clue. P-t meet kettle.

It’s purely a mismanagement!!! Imagine laying off important engineers while there are a bunch of NON VALUE added position like Lean Manufacturing/5S that is not even close to contributing anything to productivity and quality, plus safety personnel that I haven’t heard any contribution to trduce any safety inside the factory!!!! Yet they are sitting pretty in their office desk or worst comfort of their home now…

People have a short term memory.

Boeing laid off all the BDS engineers in Washington state. They chose to lay this group off because they were one of the most senior groups in Washington state. These engineers would have worked on the tanker program and the Starliner.

Instead Boeing decided to replace them with mainly new graduate engineers in Huntsville, St. Louis and Philadelphia. This was done to save money on salary.

Looking at how the tanker program and Starliner have performed is there any question that was a mistake?

And to those who say they don’t discriminate based on age, then why did they arbitrarily decide to lay off that group of engineers?

How many engineers have been laid off in Charleston and Moscow during the pandemic? They laid off in Washington state because they’re older and make more.

This post is BS. Anyone who has left Boeing either voluntarily or involuntary and takes a job with another company, does not waste a minute of their day thinking about Boeing. Most would rather soon forget their entire time at Boeing and move on.

This comes from someone who worked at Boeing for 7 years. I did not see any employee over 40 years old contribute anything to make products better. All they do is whine and complain about how Boeing used to be this or that. The real engineering folks left long time ago in the late 90s and early 2000s.

I personally know atleast 15 people that have been called back to everett. The wire shop up there has called back a TON of people.

Renton and auburn have been conducting recalls. Some of the guys have less than 3 years in and have gotten recalled already.

Frederickson has done some recalls (not nearly as many as other sites.

The building I was working in only had one of two people laid off that had 6 years or more seniority.

Obviously anyone that's saying boeing is discriminating and not calling back older folks clearly doesn't work for the company and has no idea how seniority or recall rights work. Trust me the company wishes they could get rid of the older guys that remember when the work was easy and they didn't need to do much. But instead they had to get rid of the younger guys and all they had left is the older folks.

This is why this website isn't very useful anymore.. It's rare that someone posts and has any idea what their talking about.

@1yxo+1cnYTFw3, I am the OP. I never claimed I was working with Boeing when I was 17. I maybe young and naïve but at least I can maintain a positive attitude and spell the word "lie" correctly.

@1dsw+1cnYTFw3, I am US based employee in Washington state.

@1xns+1cnYTFw3, I appreciate your insight. You gave a thoughtful response and actually something worth thinking about.

3. 5 yrs of service and you got recalled? Which Boeing site are you working? Are you a US Boeing employee?

To the original poster: Your instincts are already telling you what you should do. The way the 737 MAX issues were handled is a preview of what is to come. It is before your time, but the 787 has some pretty gruesome and ultimately fatal design issues. These haven't ki---d any passengers yet, but have no doubt, they will, and soon. This is about what they have been doing for the past 20+ years and one thing they teach you in the management program (and live by it) is that once you pick a plan or strategy, you MUST stay with it at all cost. This thinking will prevent Boeing from turning the ship and getting out of this bind: they have picked the unsustainable strategy of being a high-margin, static manufacturer and not a dynamic engineering company first. Financially, they are a disaster. Look at their stock price. Their product strategy is in the worst shape ever. Even if they had the intention, which they don't, the financial pressure will prevent fixing the product strategy problem, until the next self-inflicted huge crisis topples BCA and forces the company to break up and spin-off divisions that have a chance of being salvaged (if any, not BCA programs). If you have a new job in a new industry, and you are happy with your new job, stay with it. Working more years for Boeing won't make you a more valuable engineer/technician/mechanic/employee. Jumping back to Boeing will signal any future employer what to expect if you get laid off again, and will reduce your chance of getting hired again by others. The era of spending long years at the same company is long gone. I'd recommend staying with your current employer, or if you are unhappy, find a different non-Boeing job. You won't regret it.

With your 3.5 years with Boeing, it seems hard to believe you would be at the top of a recall list for any skill code. Unless of course Boeing doesn't want to recall anyone over the age of forty who's on the recall list. Like people who have worked hard over the years to become good at doing their job.