Thread regarding Zenith Education Group layoffs

Wyotech (1966-2016): What Happened?

I am writing a report tentatively titled "Wyotech (1966-2016): What Happened?" I plan on it being a case study on the rise and fall of for-profit education and the future of US vocational education. It really is a tragedy how all this has played out.

My guess is that the downfall started when Wyotech became part of Corinthian Colleges, and Goldman Sachs took a great deal of control over the company. When profits meant more than student outcomes, there was collusion and complicity among management, staff, and teachers. Some people could see the direction things were going, but felt powerless in trying to make changes.

I would appreciate any feedback that former students and teachers could provide about what they witnessed at Wyotech over the years. What was great about Wyotech? What could you or Wyotech have done better? Can Wyotech be resurrected? If so, how do you imagine this could happen, and what changes would need to be made? What niche could Wyotech fill that a community college couldn't?

I would especially like to hear from military veterans who went to Wyotech or worked there. I believe we still need vocational education in the US, but the tuition is not affordable when you take future earnings of may into account.

My email is dahneshaulis@gmail.com

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| 3271 views | | 21 replies (last September 23, 2016) | Reply
Post ID: @OP+JtBxqd5

21 replies (most recent on top)

To 3xjt:

College credits are not accepted universally. Each university sets the standards of acceptability when considering college credit transfers. Universities are infamous for not accepting college credits from junior colleges, because it helps the bottom line, which is to keep the student longer by forcing them to retake classes again. Education is a scam. Period. But really, when it comes down to it, it is up to the individual to take ownership of their education to get as much out of it as they are able. Let's not place the onus on the individual, heck, somebody might have to own up to their irresponsible behavior. Gee, then we wouldn't have anyone to blame but ourselves.

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Post ID: @3mnj+JtBxqd5

To 3jhq,

Because they don't push them through without doing the work. They don't care if you flunk and they don't make professors pass incompetent students. You simply have to do the work as they want it done or you flunk. They don't cuddle you at all. Because of this, they are a real college and their credits can go anywhere. You can't justify Everest and their worthless credits and degree by bashing Community Colleges.

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Post ID: @3jxt+JtBxqd5

Why aren't community and state colleges held to the same standards? These colleges are all subsidized with tax dollars, but yet are not required to meet minimum graduation or job placement rates. Community colleges have some of the worst completion rates of all colleges but get the highest praise for keeping tuition low. I'm not sticking up for the for-profits, but when are we going to hold these others to higher standards? They are just as much a waste of tax dollars as the for-profits.

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Post ID: @3jhq+JtBxqd5

He is a good article to read. http://diverseeducation.com/article/87150/ and this about sums it up

"Officials at many of these companies had no comment. But Steve Gunderson, president of Career Education Colleges and Universities, an industry lobbying group in Washington, said some schools are in danger of collapsing, in part because of “the incredible eight-year regulatory, ideological assault by the administration and their allies.”

Under the updated federal rules, schools can no longer pay recruiters bonuses based on the number of students they enroll. The government has vowed to cut funding to academic programs if their graduates don’t find jobs that pay well. And a new proposal would force colleges to repay student debt if they’re found guilty of fraud."

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Post ID: @3hms+JtBxqd5

This is my analysis so far, based on some research and the great feedback I've gotten. It appears that Wyotech had a good model at the beginning, and in some cases, throughout much of its history. However:

(1) Corinthian Colleges bought Wyotech at too high a price. (9.5X EBITA)

(2) In some cases, it expanded too fast and went away from its core curriculum (expansion to aviation maintenance did not pan out).

(3) It hired executives with no background in the field of vocational education.

(4) It forced enrollment when it wasn't there (hiring 100 enrollment reps).

(5) It charged tuitions that were unaffordable to many working-class students.

(6) It responded to budget cuts by using less effective teaching methods (e.g. YouTube instead of hands on).

(7) In some cases, it hired instructors with limited work experience.

(8) It based merit pay on retention instead of teaching quality--which eroded the integrity of the programs.

(9) Bureau of Labor Statistics projections for the demand for automotive technology workers did not pan out.

What points did I miss? Can you give me any details?

What were the great things about Wyotech?

If you do have details, including names and dates, my email is dahneshaulis@gmail.com

I added what I could to Wikipedia, but need sources in order to post anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WyoTech

(1) Can anyone give me years when you started figuring each of these points out?

(2) Did things unfold differently at different campuses?

(3) What could Wyotech do to separate itself from community colleges that offer much lower tuition?

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Post ID: @2ywq+JtBxqd5

Integrity! Now there is word in meetings.... Yup we were told to pass them no question about that. Bonuses were good. It has not changed much, they pass with a 70 and still do today except by low skilled instructors exception to a few. Obviously medical schools are cheaper to run, it does not take a college degree to run a business and figure out those financial numbers. Hand skill instructors that do not or have not lived their life in an industry are in capable of high quality knowledge to pass on. Yes they can teach but they cannot explain HVAC of a house unless they crawled under the house and actually did it in 100 degree heat. They cannot explain a drivability problem on a motorcycle or boat unless they were a tech for at least 7 to 10 years. They cannot explain an automotive diagnosis of a slight head gasket leak on the back passenger cylinder unless they lived it. No one can replace hands on experience with a paper and a resume. Good tech yes, good teacher yes, produce a good student who will survive this new high tech world we live in,,,,,,,experience will be your only survival rope, the rest will fail as they are failin as we type this. Business must profit to survive and if you do not train a student to be profitable businesses will sink do to our produced product. A good tech does not have to live the industry but he may not be profitable he may only be a good tech. A great tech is financially stable and can make a great living and sleeps with pride not existence of collecting a paycheck. One is called profitable to business and businesses stay open. This country was built by blue collar workers. Maybe we for get what hard work and Americans used to be. Blue collar businesses feed families, corporate board meetings look at financial statements and realize they only see numbers and margins. There is no American pride in a board room. Knowledge can be spread on like a disease. Anyone can watch you tube and rewrite a PowerPoint so they can teach it even it's missing the important stuff or better yet pop on a video and walk out of the classroom.

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Post ID: @1wcc+JtBxqd5

Several notes about the Wyotechs....

A review of management's phone call to investors in the later years, show that CCI was trying to sell the Wyotechs. As they said, the Wyotechs were a small part of CCI's portfolio. And, just making a safe guess here, they were far more expensive to run, compared to a medical assisting program. (Or one of the academic programs.)

There is just no comparison between buying a plastic skeleton, some stethoscopes, a few charts, etc., and buying and maintaining lifts, scan tools, motorcycle dynos, digital multimeters, lathes, tire machines, all the hand and power tools for electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, mechanics, and so on and so forth.

In addition, I suppose when you are studying to be a medical assistant, and on the subject of blood pressure, all you need is a blood pressure cuff, and other students to practice on. Temperature taking, bedpan wrangling, blood-drawing and innoculation...it can all fit in a small store front. And demo models don't have to be purchased. They are paying to be there.

If you are studying for the trades, or another highly mechanized/electonicized field, you need numerous cars, trucks, excavators, HVAC units, electrical motors, motorcycles, marine devices, places to rough out a bathroom, and on and on. (Some of these items take up a lot of square footage also. And need to be repaired/maintained/replaced, on some schedule.)

I have no idea what CCI management projected Wyotech profits to be, before they rolled them up, along with all the other (dissimilar) schools. But I suppose you would have to say they were willing to make a substantial investment in the trade schools--as some were basically built from the ground up (Wyotech West Sacramento, Daytona, Moto at Wyotech Fremont.) These schools were superbly equipped. (And as far as I know, the existing ones were too. Perhaps with the exception of "new" used vehicles, to practice on, especially at the end.)

Don't take my word for it; the fact that Mack, Mazda, Ducati, BMW, and who-all knows else, decided to run manufacturer-sponsored training courses out of the various Wyotechs, indicate that industry had great faith in the schools. (At least the part that they could set the standards for.)

This, of course, is just part of the Wyotech schools' story...but an important part. One final observation: Not ONCE did I see a news report on the CCI collapse that referenced a Wyotech trade student. My memory is that 100% of the stories were about young single mothers trying to get into the medical field--and finding out their preparation was insufficient to secure a good job. The student debt however, was nose-bleed high. (The Heald academic side was a somewhat different story--but you certainly couldn't fault the quality and effort of the teachers.)

It's a shame that CCI did not find a buyer for the trade schools, before bankruptcy was declared, and assests auctioned off. In California, of course, it was made infinitely more difficult by the Attorney General refusing to release any Wyotech buyer from CCI's potential liability. This proviso essentially made the schools unsaleable. (Though Wyotech West Sacramento failed to sell on it's own, well before the A.G.'s decision.) And after the corporate bankruptcy, the assets necessarily were auctioned off, leases broken, and staff scattered. Creating such a school anew--as opposed to buying a basically fully-amortized, functioning operation, with reasonable leasing costs, would be hugely more expensive. An argument can be made (and is), that junior colleges may well be better model for delivery of technical education. (Of course, it pays to keep in mind that costs are not insignificant in that model either...one way or the other, taxpayers foot a lot of the bill.)

It's a shame it turned out the way it did. Last I heard, they are still hiring electrical, HVAC, and auto technician apprentices. The Wyotechs could have still been part of the feeder pipeline.

Good luck in putting the whole story together.

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Post ID: @1jvj+JtBxqd5

I got it. The person someone was talking about was FS. It looks like this was a bad move, but there may have been other bad moves preceding that. It looks like Corinthian Colleges paid too much for Wyotech, then tried to expand too quickly. It also looks like the forecasts about the growth in automotive technology were wrong. It also looks like Corinthian colleges tried to force growth when it wasn't there, by hiring 100 enrollment reps.

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Post ID: @1lcr+JtBxqd5

Again, thanks for your responses. I see that Tim Shutz was head of the schools for awhile. If there is anybody who has been there that long, how good of an executive was he? Who followed him ,and how did they do? When did the instruction get dumbed down?

I hope Wyotech people will take a look at the timeline I created on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WyoTech

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Post ID: @1ime+JtBxqd5

What has happened to Wyo-Tech is definitely a crime. Corinthian "dumbed up" their education to students and passed them without skills. This is not the instructors problem as they were told to do so. Now Zenith has carried on the virus. These schools should be closed!!!

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Post ID: @1kjg+JtBxqd5

You don't have to live and breath cars and or motorcycles to be a top technician or instructor. You have to be dedicated to the job at hand, but you can have other interests that you do with your spare time. WyoTech started going down hill because CCi got greedy. They hired business grunts that only worried about the bottom line and knew nothing about education. When you hire a movie theater executive to oversee an automotive school and that person is responsible for the direction of the schools, what would you expect. When instructors and middle management are put on PIPS because students dropped out or failed a class you get people doing what's necessary to protect their jobs. When 80% of your yearly review and merit raise is based on student retention, what happens to integrity?

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Post ID: @1kxs+JtBxqd5

Thanks for all of your responses. I'd like to know where and what year people saw these negative changes occurring at Wyotech, and what the response was about these changes (passing students who were not capable, seeing fewer resources).

Besides information on the decline of Wyotech, does anyone think it can be resurrected? If so, how?

It looks to me that the original Wyotech (Laramie and later Blairsville) was doing ok before it was purchased by Corinthian Colleges in 2002. I believe the original Wyotech, which was founded in 1966, served its students and served a community need (automotive repair).

I'm not sure when Blairsville opened, though I do know a new facility was built around 2003.

I stand corrected about the original Corinthian Colleges investors. Banc One and Credit Suisse were in on the Corinthian IPO in 1999. Goldman Sachs did have a 9% stake in Corinthian Colleges before the collapse, but that may not have been significant. Wells Fargo was a bigger player.

http://www.insidercow.com/institution/subject.jsp;jsessionid=0B0FEACF136866ABC2B05262165B517E?subject=0001066134&company=COCO

I started constructing a timeline about Wyotech on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WyoTech

It certainly looks like Corinthian Colleges damaged Wyotech, by extending out to places where students were defaulting in higher numbers (e.g. Boston, Long Beach, Sacramento). Unaffordable tuition and competition from community colleges really hurt. And to cut expenses, Corinthian Colleges cut resources--which are essential for a good vocational or technical school. Marketing was a huge expense, but it could not make up for the price differentials between Wyotechs and community colleges.

Also, as one person said, Wyotech used social promotion: teachers passed people who were not doing the work or were not capable. I'm sure there was probably pressure from above not to fail too many students, especially veterans.

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Post ID: @1bss+JtBxqd5

At least there is some entertainment here. WyoTech is not a total failure but more of a mismanaged business. Everyone with a title wants to be a leader. No true business can run with a building full of leaders that do not understand the word work and just collect a paycheck. You cannot hide in your office daily and install makeup or talk on your cell phone. You cannot walk around with an attitude because you are intimidated by those that really know the industry whom just laugh at managers. In the automotive and motorcycle industry you cannot think your degree is a level above those that live the life, its a life not a job. Most of the ideas come from the instructors however you were late on taking our ideas. If you are going to manage a motorcycle or car technician school, at the very least please of worked in the industry for several years (10) and I do not mean writing on paper. True hard work. Blue collar workers own managers and leaders in many ways. Every time you turn the key in your car remember who you take your car to in need of transportation. every time you turn on the sink for water remember no manager made that water flow. As for motorcycles, they are fun, and safety comes first. No one wants to listen to some student from school that thinks they know the industry because they attended a school for 9 months. go live the life and then come back and tell me about managing a technical school. by the way the Hells Angels comment, they got their hair cut, they wear suits and ties now. They own more than you will ever imagine. keep up the good work kids. P.S. how many instructors ride motorcycles to work daily because its a way of life? How many instructors go boating because its a way of life? How many instructors are at the car track on the weekend? A disease is easy to spread, sales pitches are a waste of good oxygen.

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Post ID: @1opn+JtBxqd5

1kxl: You have no idea what you're talking about. 1st, you are not going to be a "Real Technician" with only six months training. You don't become a doctor just by going to medical school, you have to do intership. 2nd, by your definition a "Real Instructor" must hide his cars, whatever the hell that means. 3rd, I guess you're idea of a "Real Motorcycle Instructor" is that he has to be a Hells Angel.

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Post ID: @1bxy+JtBxqd5

A lot written here by people that know nothing, most by students that haven't enough common sense to know which end of screw driver to hold.

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Post ID: @1teg+JtBxqd5

If your going to charge 26,000 to learn this trade then produce a real technician. The students can barely hold a job and they are not equipped to handle real life jobs. The instructors are collecting paychecks. There is no real world business in the schools to actually show students what the life will be like in the industry. Very few teachers have been in the industry a long time. Many failed in the industry and this was an option. The classes are video based and not real world based. Turn on a video and walk out. The teachers sound smart because they watched a you tube video. The real teachers have real cars hidden and drive them for pride. the real motorcycle teachers, they ride motorcycles to work and in life they live motorcycles. It's easy to blind a leader in today's world with clothing and hair and a walk and talk but look deeper and you may see what is really there.

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Post ID: @1kxl+JtBxqd5

The Podesta Group definitely has a few chips in this game...

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Post ID: @ehp+JtBxqd5

if a wyotech instructor is not dirty at the end of a day then they are not a real instructor. all a cover up kids all a cover up. Smole show.

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Post ID: @lom+JtBxqd5

look at the instructors that left and look at their backgrounds. Then look at the terminated instructors, your leaders got rid of. Do not hire students with inside connections to alter the paper work. Finally clean your office management out and get real industry people in there. Corporate doesn't work in the automotive and motorcycle works. If you are not real please leave we have no respect for you and we can see right through your talk stories.

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Post ID: @zme+JtBxqd5

The reasons for WyoTech failing and Everest failing have similarities (passing anybody through, no real ethical grading, allowing anybody yo attend, etc) But there are many dissimilarities too. A vocational school can make it, as long as you remove the academic people from it and have mostly those that do the job teaching. When academic professors" run a vocational school, they fail badly.

The liberal academic assistant deans are mainly to blame for Everest crashing. For years they just kept pushing students through, until the School had no credibility. Yes I know their bosses told them too, but a person with ethics fights back. Most never did the job they supervised. I saw Fashion majors running the Business department, with only retail sales as their "experience" while those with business world experience trying to teach and being cut in favor of fellow friends with liberal type bends.

Wyotech can be sold off, renamed, and then get the right sponsors and instructors and it could make it. We are definitely going to need auto mechanics, plumbers, welders and electricians. Those should be the only four areas of instruction, they will be very profitable jobs in 5 or 10 years, because no one wants to do them. I wish I had the money, I could run that school to profit.

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Post ID: @azg+JtBxqd5

Golden Sachs has never owned or had control over Corinthian. They own the EDMC schools like South University, The Art Institute and Argosy

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Post ID: @tfq+JtBxqd5

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