Thread regarding SAS Institute layoffs

I have no special knowledge or inside information, but based on my observations and the assumptions you set forth I would say $0.

First, SAS is unlikely to IPO. SAS seem to be waiting for the long term downtrend caused by mismanagement to become an uptrend. SAS's current CTO is committed to doing nothing while appearing to and planning to do nothing. Given the past caliber of his leadership this is a smart move. The only thing worst than him doing nothing is if he did "something" (negative outcome indicated by track record). I.E. downtrend will continue and it will never be a good time to IPO

Assume, as you suggest that SAS does somehow IPO. It is very unlikely you will get any "free" stock. At best you might (unlikely, but possible) get some options that will have some initial vesting period. In order to net any $ you would have to sell those options at a price above your option price. It could actually cost you money to exercise said options.

If you can go to another company and earn +$200K extra over the next 10 years, do it, but instead of spending the extra 20K a year, put it in a retirement account (Roth if you can afford it). That will end up being worth a lot more than any imagined profit you might earn from an imagined IPO.

Many of these problems existed well before Viya. 

SAS’ goal in the ‘90s and ‘00s was to extend our horizontal “tools” platform with vertical “solutions”. That’s standard business strategy: once you’ve achieved horizontal dominance, go vertical.

Among these solutions, Risk and Fraud succeeded; most others failed. If more had succeeded, their revenue streams could have bought us more time to address the multiple paradigm shifts that faced Viya.

Someday, there will be a business school case study of how we lost our way. Until then, the Peter Principle is at least a partial explanation.

“all at the same time disrupted so many of the normal rules and practices for incumbents”

not done gradually over the life of the company but in a mad dash at the end because of:

• not invented here
• tunnel vision
• uni-directional communication, from management down to employees
• minimizing expenditure (conferences, training, research)
• rapidly changing industry conditions
• the rise of open source
• increasing competition
• and many more (for you to elaborate)

for a long time, there was a relatively stable game of build for another host. the shifts to cloud first, open source and "data not software" all at the same time disrupted so many of the normal rules and practices for incumbents. maybe leadership should be blamed for not being able to respond fast or well enough. we can easily (from the sideline) poke holes in the viya strategy and execution, but it's hard to imagine any set of leaders anywhere being able to handle the paradigm shift. the proverbial stanford dropout/founder doesn't have to deal with the innovator's dilemma due to being the disruptor. possibly microsoft was the only major player to adapt successfully, becoming the most valuable company (by market cap) various times despite its previous monopoly of Windows falling to something around 10% of company revenue.

‘wind at our back’

@agxu+1sikvgnY

Totally agree with you. It was my internal compass that motivated my work ethic and I suspect it was the same for you and the rest of those who contributed well beyond over the decades. Thankfully many of us saved and invested a portion of what we made, paid off homes, etc. during a stellar long-term economic run up.

Yes, my biggest regret is that we did not take correct action to build a world class software for the roughly 15 years (1997-2012) that we had the “went at our back”. Hubris and maintaining the status quo was apparently too important for too many executives and managers.

@aowf+1sikvgnY

That was the choice we made, to work hard, even though it was clear that SAS wasn’t going to reward hard work.

But we had a chance to build world-class software. We were in a beautiful position, dominating the market for data analysis. We had a grand opportunity to continue, and grow, and make new and better products within our expertise.

Leadership did not seize that opportunity. With the wind at our backs, during the internet-driven explosive growth of data, they actually managed to shrink the company.

We all deeply regret this outcome. But we should never regret our choice.

We chose to work hard when we had a chance to build something great. You have to take the chances you’re given. They don’t all work out, that’s all.

@5xaw+1sikvgnY

SAS offered “work/life balance” to the masses for decades b/c roughly 10% of us didn’t have it. Our passion for tech and personal work ethics drove us to go far beyond and SAS significantly continued to succeed because of this. Most of us were not compensated in kind.

If you read the post carefully you will see that the phrase “typical corporate dysfunction” (TCD) proceeds the reference to DEI. TCD has existed for decades — long preceding present day DEI initiatives.

TCD has been responsible for creating orders of magnitude more bullsh-t jobs than DEI.

@9lyr+1sikvgnY Interesting you single out DEI as a corporate disfunction when many of those FAANGS are about as diverse as SAS and put the same commitment (or lack thereof) as SAS. It's funny how people want to blame DEI when it was all lip service to begin with.

FAANGs have plenty of people in ”support” jobs doing the necessary work to stay in them. FAANGs also have a fair number of “bullsh-t“ jobs in the name of typical corporate dysfunction and more recently DEI. Not everyone those companies in even a 3-5X, much less a mythical 10X. The people who succeed have the right combination of modern interviewing skills, operational productivity and for some political savvy. The difference has been the growth of FAANG market capitalization for the past 20+ years

The FAANG platforms are starting to show or will show eventually the same dated bloat and technical debt SAS has been wrangling with for the past 20 years. FAANGs over hired during pandemic stimulus and we continue to see the reckoning of that.

PSA: https://stocks.apple.com/A4MTzSLacR2awxv01Xm750g

"For many of us, having a career path is not a goal - we have other rewards outside of work. For us, we want to go to work, make a contribution, and go home. SAS offered for decades job security and work-life balance."

Spot on. And in reality, only a small handful of folks are the true movers and shakers and the rest of us are in supporting roles. Some of us in the supporting roles recognize it and are fine with it. Some of us have no illusions of grandeur or a false sense of our abilities or importance.

I was satisfied with trying to do a good job for 40 hours a week. SAS treated me very well for almost 30 years now. I've said it before ... I don't make FAANG money and there is a reason for it ... I don't have FAANG-level abilities. I realize it even more now than I ever have before, as trends have shifted and SAS is facing a tough future, how very fortunate I have been.

Indeed, SAS delivered job security and work-life balance for decades. This deal was temporary, supported by the revenue stream created by the founders and early employees.

Those people wanted career paths. Many of them could not achieve their career goals at SAS, so they left. Still, the revenue stream they created was so strong that for many years, SAS had no serious competition.

Now, a culture of job security and work-life balance can’t compete against open source and FAANGs. Hence we get layoffs.

Companies can change their cultures. It sometimes happens when they face existential threats. It has not happened yet at SAS.

@5xaw+1sikvgnY

"offered" -> "delivered" is a more accurate word that I should have used

@4byh+1sikvgnY

For many of us, having a career path is not a goal - we have other rewards outside of work. For us, we want to go to work, make a contribution, and go home. SAS offered for decades job security and work-life balance.

“no one who works anywhere for 25 years shoukd only be making $130k. they pay kids straight out of college more than that now.”

Straight up truth. What the pandemic did was expose SAS for just how (sub)average it is, especially if you want to build a career. How many have been in the same role for years, taking their 0% - 3% pay increases and tiny bonuses, with no chance for real upward career mobility. I lost track of how many time raises and bonus were muted because “we had a bad year and you should just be happy you work here”. The only real career path at SAS is leaving SAS. Unless of course you’re enamored with subsidized cafeterias, free gyms, and no pressure or accountability. Choose wisely my friends.

"Please keep your hopes alive, and contribute as much as you can each pay period. We promise it will be fruitful, at least to us. The family thanks you for your continued loyalty and support....

Whoever wrote that post is bang on. It speaks to the cultishness of SAS.

Dear OP - You will see $0. However, you will be allowed to buy into the mythology of growth at a discount. Please keep your hopes alive, and contribute as much as you can each pay period. We promise it will be fruitful, at least to us. The family thanks you for your continued loyalty and support.

Please ignore that we will target you for a layoff whenever we feel the whim. And always, please, always, remember that you a member of our most special group, and are one of our most important assets. Please understand that tears well up in our eyes each evening when you log off, or drive out the gate, whatever it is that you do. Without your low-cost labor, our lives wouldn't be possible.

SAS is not known for competitive pay, not then, not now, not ever.
If you have the opportunity to get a better paying job elsewhere, have the courage to leave, especially if you have 10+ more years before you can retire.
If you want to stay at SAS, that's up to you. Just know that when things get bad or when they need to cut costs, they can lay you off. So you either leave on your own terms at your own timing and choosing or you leave on their terms when they cut you sooner or later.

@2rdd+1sikvgnY

"I've been here 21 years and only make $120k."

I hate to say it, dude, but maybe you should be thankful. Or rather, maybe there's a silver lining to that cloud. Take your pick.

Consider Phlebas. The people laid off in August were principal, 20+ year veterans of SAS. I personally know several of them, and they were all there at the beginning of the company's most recent attempts to reinvent itself: VA and LASR, then Viya and CAS. And they were high performers. Some of them sat at the right hand of the man himself on his way up the ladder to CTO / COO. They were on his team when it was still in the ACL, and later when ASR was formed.

But now they're unemployed by SAS, and the only "rationale" for that appears to be salary, which after 20+ years at SAS as high-performing employees was enough to get them on the list.

This would have been about 10 years ago now, I accidentally saw the salary of one of my peers when they weren't being careful about not showing me part of their screen. This person was a Senior Software Dev and had been at SAS for 16 years. They weren't a rockstar, but showed up every day, were pleasant to work with, and wrote decent enough code.

Their salary was $87k.

SAS, like many companies, is happy to pay you as little as they can while keeping you happy. It's clear this person had never advocated for themselves and never had a manager who advocated for them either. I also think 10+ years ago salary transparency wasn't a big deal either. Glad to see the employees being empowered these days.

I've been here 21 years and only make $120k. The people who were managers and directors in my department just stayed and stayed and stayed. Terrible at their jobs but I guess it would be too much work to replace them. But that meant no one could ever advance. Was turned down for every internal job I applied for. Once the push for internal mobility was a thing, I tried that too. I would have had to drop two levels in seniority to do it. That's garbage. Thanks SAS.

For all of JG's comments about employees being SAS's most important asset, it all seems a bit hollow if the remuneration of the OP is typical for a loyal employee of 25 years. It's no wonder the top talent has all left.

"I can't believe SAS gets away with paying someone $130k after 25 years."

Yep! It's true for techies at SAS and more common than you think.

Sorry, but it's hard to believe you're smart enough to get a better paying job when you're stupid enough to stay.

I can't believe SAS gets away with paying someone $130k after 25 years.

Dude, are you a janitor or one of the gardeners?

"possibly the opportunity to buy shares at a discount"

Only fools would want to buy no-growth or low-growth stocks even at a discount.

i find it interesting how people here think that the current payouts for job elimination or layoff will hold of the company is sold. I'm pretty sure they won't. Please do not expect you will get paid out your year of severance or whatever when SAS is sold. Don't plan around that windfall or hang on for it because it is unlikely to come. The company can change that payout structure at any time and I'm pretty sure the sale of the company would cancel out any standing agreements to pay employees out.

Are you out of your mind?

How much money might one get?

NOTHING. Nothing is what you are likely to get. You're not going to get squat for your 25 years here. possibly the opportunity to buy shares at a discount, but that's assuming the ipo even goes off. which it won't.

anyone who can leave and doesn't leave is incredibly foolish. the so-called leadership here is so poor they're driving the whole place into the ground. they run on a hamster wheel to make themselves look busy, sure. but it's all bs.

if you can get out, get out. no one who works anywhere for 25 years shoukd only be making $130k. they pay kids straight out of college more than that now. if that doesn't convince you then you are a lost cause. save yourself.

If you have an opportunity like that lined up, I'd strongly recommend taking it

"Sure you may be able to purchase the stock at a small discount but any real profit would require significant gain."

Why does Midway Air come to mind?

Because it really, really should.

When my friend and I left SAS a few years ago for publicly traded companies that offered stock grants that vested over 4 years (RSUs). To compare we took the percentage of the company that grant was worth of the market cap when we would join, and compared it to the $20 Billion broadcom offered for SAS. If SAS were to offer me the same amount as a percentage of the company the present dollar value would have been $36,000 over 4 years. So $9000 a year, not bad, not great either. My friend's was worth even less (IIRC $6000 total). My guess is SAS will give grants in stock and less cash as part of bonus's going forward which is a win/win for most companies that are publicly traded.

"Sure you may be able to purchase the stock at a small discount but any real profit would require significant gain."

Why does Midway Air come to mind?

Agree, in order to make any real money on stock options or ESPP, it would require the stock to grow in value. Sure you may be able to purchase the stock at a small discount but any real profit would require significant gain. As we all know, SAS’s growth is very flat and has been for a long time. It is a real possibility that any stock would lose $, especially in the first few years.

If you have something lined up you should take it. Assuming that we IPO, the best that we can probably expect to get are RSUs (Restricted Stock Units). They are what have replaced stock options for the peons like us. Those typically take several years to vest, and there is no guarantee that they will be worth anything when they do.

I am hoping for a VRBP, but that hope gets a little smaller every day.

If there is an IPO, expect layoffs. If there is a sale, expect LAYOFFS. In either case, I suspect that the severance will not be as generous as it has been.

“ I agree with a lot of what realists have posted here”

Smart! Always agree with people who are realists…
Way to self validate yourself.

I would not fall for the carrot on the stick if I had a real, ready to go, better options. Go. Odds are good employees will get nothing other than the option to buy SAS stock.

"miserable": Can you remedy that situation while staying? Try to assess what specifically needs to be different to move you over into the "rewarding" category.

If you cannot remedy that situation while staying, then put an annual dollar amount on your mental well-being.

Are you willing to sell your well-being for that amount? If so, then stay. If not, then subtract that amount from your current salary. What is left is the amount that you need to earn somewhere else that gives you a sense of well-being with work. I.e., you do not need to restrict your choices to only better-paying jobs - that lower, happier salary gives you more choices. If you end up making more elsewhere, then even better.

One word: Go.