Thread regarding ADP layoffs

To be honest, I don't like being called FAT. I, like many of the baby boomers, was trimmed because of my age, not my physique. The knowledge and experience I brought to the job was worth it to ADP, or I would not have lasted long enough to be pushed into retirement. ADP chose to replace experienced employees with younger employees that don't know as much. Knowledge has value and is not fat. You will learn that should you last long enough to some day be in a similar position.

The fact that this many people are unhappy with the way they are treated by ADP is not an accident. I’ve been at ADP for 10 years now and the last several have been monumentally bad on many fronts which is why I am out as of next week. It’s not an accident that all of the best have left.

FWIW I can say in my case my team (NAS/GPT) has lots of work, so now less people will just work harder. This is not a lack of work/business issue. The only reason to do that is to help the fat cats make their bonus targets, and help the shareholders earn a few more dimes per share. Workers are not the focus of this company. I was only there 4 years and have seen 4 rounds of layoff's. It's a constant joke/fear around there. Maybe it is some sort of head game they play.
What still burns me is I am sure there are still plenty of H1-B visas walking around there as Americans IT people are losing their jobs that could be retained and make the Visa person take that walk. Don't tell me they are just filling in for temp project work or cant find an american to do it, there are always projects to do and always the need for the labor, and they give it to H1-B's without question or without anyone making sure companies are not abusing the visa system at the expense of jobs for Americans. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
I had offshore people on my team and they are still there and I get the boot? 20 years of IT so please don't talk c-ap about not being qualified or re-trainable. If I was not targeted because of salary or age I would need to have that proven to me. When I see the group of newbies taking the tour of the company as is done when they start, it looks like a high school field trip, nothing but young grads taking their first real jobs and us older folks see the writing on the wall. ADP does not put ping pong tables, foos ball and corn hole games there for us, it's to make it look like a play ground for the kids they hire. We cost too much, simple as that. Loyalty to any company today is simply not worth it.
At least this is going to be my last corporate job, I am done with IT, can't compete with cheap labor in India and Indian managers pushing more and more jobs offshore. Gonna work with my wife's business and grow that. Rather die on my sword than wait for the henchmen in a turban to come get me again.
BTW, of 3 of us impacted on my team, 1 was Indian and he was just moved to a new team, myself and another older fella were let go. yeah, let me find out he has a visa..

With the deep neverending layoffs going on for years now, it is easy to see why there would be anger and resentment from the remaining employees. It doesn't matter if the layoffs are justified or not, but ADP is alienating its workforce by these constant layoffs. It is amazing that ADP management is not taking the mental strain and anguish of its employees into consideration. YEARS of these aggressive layoffs with no sign of them ending soon. Surviving employees may feel like they are on Death Row, with the axe hovering above them every day. And then one day it falls. So it is not surprising to see anger and hate from both present and past ADP employees. It is just human nature. Not hard to understand. But apparently ADP doesn't care about that and is creating a substandard and demotivated workforce for itself.

And for the posters who insist that it is just dead wood and incompetents being laid off, then how did these tens of thousands who have been laid off in the past few years get to be at ADP in the first place? Why were they tolerated for so many years without being let go? Why was their incompetence tolerated? Their incompetence and lack of action caused ADP harm every day they were there. And why when they were finally dismissed were they laid off and not fired? Many received severance. Why give severance to incompetent and worthless employees? Just fire them. So the management team was also incompetent in hiring those losers and then tolerating them for so many years? It would appear so, if the laid off workers were truly let go for incompetence.

But of course the real reason for the layoffs was to save on labor costs. You can bank on that.

Not everyone with 10+ years at ADP will be let go all at the same time. This is being done in stages over a period of years. If they get rid of ALL of them at once, that would lead to disastrous consequences that would cripple or destroy the company. These cheap employee and overseas replacements are being done gradually.

I know many in the RPO space that have been there 10+ years and still have jobs.

Agreed. It is not the bottom 5% that are being shown the door. Not only is that insulting, it is not current ADP. Remember, they want to keep the cheap employees, so the bottom 5% just might qualify to be kept based on their lower pay rates. Sadly, this is more due to age and long tenure than it is performance. Product knowledge and experience is currently not being correctly valued.

Correct. It is the high compensation that forced many out. ADP is trying to save on labor costs by replacing highly paid workers with cheaply paid workers. It is all about saving money.

Bottom 5%? You are a complete w—rr. I can assure you many of the "targets" were not bottom 5% but top 5%, both in knowledge, expertise, and compensation. And it is the compensation that got them forced out. That is not to say there are bottom 5% people who should go but that one is easy: fire all of the Indian cheap labor!

@3say+15BGezCi
Just about every major financial institution (read: banks) trims the bottom 5% of performers every single year. It is a normal cycle for them, and apparently, now ADP as well.

I actually liked the post by @chk+15BGezCi. I thought the opinions were well considered.

I, myself, was VERP'd by ADP and can understand both sides - confusion, anger, loss of purpose. Many of you will understand. Some now, some later. However, I also understood that though I had worked hard over many years, more than earning my pay, to make ADP successful, I was replaceable. However, I resent being considered trimmed FAT, though I did understand that younger employees could be moved to my position and paid less. This was less about my abilities and more about the positions and job responsibilities changing and ADP changing focus from being a career to trying to please Mr. Ackman and the stock market and treating employees as disposable.

Those of you that are newbies need to remember that while it can be nice to be part of a large company and large workforce, there are only so many promotions available. As that backlog builds, you may become expendable, or considered FAT to be trimmed, especially if your position is repurposed or eliminated. Not real pleasant to be considered FAT.

OP:

The facts that I have stated in my previous post are facts, not opinions. You are certainly free to disagree, but do not ascribe anger, thin skin, or any emotions to me.

I am a dispassionate analyst and I don't insult people in my posts. You however, are emotional and like to hurl insults. It doesn't matter to me if you do. People are free to read or not read my posts and believe or not believe what I say. It is not the end of the world if people do not like or believe what I say. I have no anger, no animosity, and no delusion in me. No emotion, no skin in the game.

Believe or don't believe what I say, but when you ascribe emotions to me, you are inaccurate. You don't know me and don't know what I feel. I am a very satisfied retiree who is financially secure who now has time on his hands to enjoy life. Whether ADP succeeds or flounders does not make any difference to me. I took my pension lump sum.

@3say+15BGezCi I should have said those laid off were not more tenured employees. I don’t know what they were making, I just know many of them were hired in within the last 5 years or less and were on accounts that had no work.

@2cux+15BGezCi
Nearing 15 years, actually.

You're right, I am absolutely in their sights: Pension, an almost market competitive salary for my position, tenure, and a few other factors that would be too identifying for my comfort. But there's a reason I'm not much worried for myself. Won't say why that is, but I will say it wasn't by accident. I feel bad for some of the people who will be let go, but I won't be timid about my efforts to secure my position. I worked too hard for false modesty.

@2gax+15BGezCi
Me thinks you're used to your spreadsheets and don't know how to deal with someone disagreeing with you. I didn't fail to address anything. I called you on the floor for your subjective "facts". Don't you get it, or is it that you're too delusional that you can't see you're not stating facts? There is nothing to argue in your original post. I can't argue how you FEeeEeL. The best part of stating opinions is you can't be proven wrong.

If we can't agree on what are facts and opinions then we can't discuss. Your "facts" are mostly opinions, but you project that onto me. You'll say "these are the facts" in the same breath you profess to know that those people laid off are not dead weight. Where are your figures on that statement, professor? How do you know these new hires can't master the job?

Next you'll say that I'm in the same boat, that I only state opinions... And you'd be right. The difference is I never claimed the contrary. I know these are my opinions, I presented them that way, while you claim your word is gospel. You seem used to getting your way when you're lying out of both sides of your mouth. Must be difficult for you to face your hypocrisy.

Funny thing is.... I actually agree with 90% of what you had to say. What gets my goat is your fragile ego.

@2gax+15BGezCi
Me thinks you're used to your spreadsheets and don't know how to deal with someone disagreeing with you. I didn't fail to address anything. I called you on the floor for your subjective "facts". Don't you get it, or is it that you're too delusional that you can't see you're not stating facts? There is nothing to argue in your original post. I can't argue how you FEeeEeL. The best part of stating opinions is you can't be proven wrong.

If we can't agree on what are facts and opinions then we can't discuss. Your "facts" are mostly opinions, but you project that onto me. You'll say "these are the facts" in the same breath you profess to know that those people laid off are not dead weight. Where are your figures on that statement, professor? How do you know these new hires can't master the job?

Next you'll say that I'm in the same boat, that I only state opinions... And you'd be right. The difference is I never claimed the contrary. I know these are my opinions, I presented them that way, while you claim your word is gospel. You seem used to getting your way when you're lying out of both sides of your mouth. Must be difficult for you to face your hypocrisy.

Funny thing is.... I actually agree with 90% of what you had to say. What gets my goat is your fragile ego.

Many companies are laying off, but not nonstop for so many years and not for so many people. No matter what kind of people are laid off, the aim is still to reduce labor costs.

Must be great to be in a position to know so many laid off people's salaries.

Actually many people in my office were not higher paid. The ones I noticed that we’re furloughed was based on amount of work and loss of accounts. Many companies are laying off we shouldn’t be surprised. It is upsetting but it is happening everywhere.

Deadwood, schmedwood. Yes, ADP targeted the top wage earners, no matter how high performing they were. All about cost savings, not getting rid of deadwood or incompetents. If you were a top performer but your wage was "too high", out you go. Then they can call you "deadwood" to mask their labor cost savings plan.

@2gfk+15BGezCi: Ha! 10 years at ADP. I guarantee you are a target but probably not yet pruned as your salary range has not yet been targeted. They did target the highest earners first for the best effect. Rest assured you will be in the RIF group unless you are one of the top 16 in the company.

OP:

It is you who is playing to the emotions and not to facts that I and others have presented. While you may not have used the word "anger" your title to your post does state "hate" which does involve anger.

You also feel free to insult others as "negative nancys", "easily ruffled", "worry wart", "got your goat". It is offensive, period. It is your post that is emotional as your insults prove it. I am not shaming, you are. I have no emotion or outrage in my post. I just present the facts as I have outlined. Please reread my post. You have failed to address the facts and have to rely on smear tactics, since you cannot defend your position based on facts.

Please address the numbered facts as I presented and comment on them rather than projecting onto others, anger, hate, shaming, and other negative connotations. Other posters may then take you seriously.

Remember, being angry, calm, old, with an aneurism, young, or a worry wart does not negate the facts.

@2fzp+15BGezCi
15 - 20k replacement/layoff is much more realistic (and much less shocking) if we're talking about 2016 - 2020 and it isn't a permanent reduction, but a replacement strategy. That's only about 4 - 5 thousand people a year over that time span. I've only seen that range it's just on its own, no timeframe over top of it, and that sticker shock fades completely when you said it's over 5 fiscal years. You know why the headline, "55,000 employee company loses 4% of their employees and replaces most of them" doesn't appear in the news? Because it's completely normal for any large company to prune itself. It's healthy.

I have over 10 years here and I can tell you there are hundred of people I could cross of the roster as incompetent or plain redundant. Let the cards fall where they may. People can demonize Leadership all they want, but reality is there is always fat to cut. You can say the company is losing talented people due to this RIF, but if they're soooo valuable why didn't they find better employment 12 months ago?

I know how this sounds, and I didn't expect many (any?) people to agree with me. The point of the post was to make other possibly like minded people feel less alone. Truth is, in today's atmosphere having someone say the truth is labeled "offensive" by the herd. I appreciate the insights from everyone - even the naysayers and crybabies. The tidbits of knowledge on this forum are very welcomed and worth the wading through the tears of the inept.

@1gqv+15BGezCi, I can assure you that the 15K-20K employee "replacement/layoff" range is real. It is/was the targeted number laid forth in 2016 for the "2020 Vision". ADP has not hit those numbers yet but they are still working towards that goal. The COVID-19 nightmare was a complete curveball and has derailed things slightly, but make no mistake, your belief of how much that might hurt/devastate ADP doesn't change those facts. The plan was started through discussions with McKinsey and Boston Consulting in 2014 & 2015 & 2016. Be assured that the layoffs and employee swap outs to cheaper labor are continuing. Call that FAT, call that deserved, call that whatever makes you feel better but the truth is most of the people affected are/where much better skilled and productive than those employed at ADP currently. Either way, stay tuned for more of the same plan in new fiscal year next month.

Why all the hate? In the end, it always comes down to self absorbed people abusing another human most of the time for money and/or power. ADP's management has exceled at abusing employees and ex-employees for the greed and power of a few. Karma will get them. :)

@1aqh+15BGezCi
Thanks for the real talk and discussion. Good points all around, what you said makes sense.

Why all the hate? Try not to look for objectivity where there may be little to none. The site is "the layoff". I'd guess that the majority of the folks coming here were a victim of a RIF, early retirement or just plain fired. Anyone who spent more than a few years with the company will be resentful the company would chop them. So if you read the context and wording, the posts / responses will range from mild dislike to absolute loathing. Nobody wants to hear that the company they did their best for no longer wishes them to continue or fits into their future plans - regardless of how those plans may or may not be misguided. Some people let it go better than others. But to others, without them or their blessing on what the company may be attempting, the company has written their obituary.

In general, seems like negative leaning posts and replies are many times the norm here and readily accepted. Most anything positive eventually gets a response accusing the individual of being a shill for the company. Maybe they are, maybe not. How does anyone really know? Other than having a different point of view. So in that regard, this site is not really much different than most other social media.

But overall, I like to think the dislike / hate chart is probably the typical bell shape. Most folks fall somewhere between the 0 - 10 of the dislike / hate scale.

@jzq+15BGezCi
A 15k - 20k RIF would be devastating to the company and client base. There is little chance that would happen. Another 2k - 4k over the next year or two, maybe. Selling off Benefits, Time, or some other product? Possible, but not likely. Just my opinion, but I won't masquerade it as factual ;-)

I think I hit a nerve when I called it, trimming the fat, early. RIF's are for exactly that. Sometimes the fat is people who have outlived their usefulness, others are simply paid too much, complacent, or cause drama in the team. I know no one likes to think of themselves as expendable, but the reality is, we're all expendable. There is always someone who is hungrier than you. Accept it, because it's reality. By all means, keep living in a fantasy, it makes my odds of continued employment that much better.

You profess that I'll likely get laid off because of my tenure and therefore pension. Yes, I have a pension, and I realize that puts a bigger target on my back. I won't go into reasons why I'm not too concerned.

OP here:

@chk+15BGezCi you presented your post as factual, and then you make a list of your opinions. Plenty of emotion and one sided arguments there, which is all good, but don't try to purposely mislead people by appealing to their emotions.

Saying I'm trying to silence people shows you didn't read my entire post. At the end of my submission I encourage people to keep bringing the negativity while encouraging people who have a different perspective (like myself) to also speak up too. The irony is palpable. I made this post because of people like you - People who try to shame others for having a different opinion from the core of the public. What you're doing is called "projection".

You put "anger" in quotes, implying I called people here angry. Do a quick crtl+F on my post. I didn't use that word a single time. I did however use the word negative. I'd invite you to reread your own post... That word is an apt description of your opinions. I'll say here what I said originally: If your hate and negativity is genuine then it's all good. But there feels like a lot of false outrage around here.

Finally, false outrage is how I'd describe your post. You found my post "highly offensive"? You have some thin skin. I'm going to assume you're being honest when you said that you're retired. It's astounding to me that you managed to live your entire life to an age ripe enough to retire when you're so easily ruffled. Negative Nancy really got your goat, huh? Hope no one calls you a worry wort one day. You may blow an aneurysm.

@chk+15BGezCi, very well said. I agree 100% and would echo what you said so factually. I think the original poster is merely trying to convince himself that all is just a blissful wonderful place at ADP. I suspect when the hammer falls on him, and it likely will if he is in the pension, his attitude will most likely change and he will realize his delusion is just that. ADP's bad management decisions to eliminate large numbers, not 1000 as he suggested but more in the range of 15,000 - 20,000 people.

Playing the hate card is a cheap shot to try to discredit other posters here. Many posters present dispassionate facts about ADP that are uncomfortable for ADP management to hear. And they want to stop that.

It is offensive to be spoken about as a "negative nancy" when you do not know the people who post here. I for one am not angry at ADP and merely dispassionately present material as I see it. As a former analyst, I do my research carefully and present what I have to say in a calm and rational manner. Being labeled as "angry" and "negative" is deeply offensive. As I said, I am not angry. I was laid off by ADP, but I then retired. ADP actually did me a favor by laying me off. I am now enjoying life like I could not do when I worked for this company. Again, I am not angry.

And in addition, concerning anger and negativity, here are some basic common sense facts to review:

1) Being angry doesn't automatically mean that you are wrong.

2) Being negative doesn't automatically mean that you are wrong.

Now let's review the facts about ADP. Not anger, not negativity, not negative nancy stuff. Just the facts.

1) Most of the people being laid off at ADP are not "fat", not "dead wood", but instead are veteran employees who have a lot of knowledge and have worked hard to keep ADP successful. The reason why these competent and accomplished employees have been / are being terminated is because ADP feels that they are overpaid and wants a cheaper labor force.

2) The new low wage workers coming in to replace the "overpaid" veteran employees cannot cope with the work because there is a steep learning curve where it takes years for new employees to come up to speed, no matter how intelligent they may be.

3) Because of the new, cheap employees inability to effectively service ADP's clients, these clients are getting shoddy service and are becoming enraged and leaving ADP to other competitors.

4) Because the new, cheap employees cannot master their jobs, they are getting discouraged and are leaving for greener pastures where the work is easier and the pay is better. ADP definitely has a demotivated workforce where it is a revolving door of new employees coming in and going out. Not a good situation.

5) ADP's top management blundered when they decided on this "cheap employee replacement scheme". They blundered by not knowing how complex many ADP's jobs are, their learning curves, and the amount of effort required to be successful in them. But it is top management's job to know exactly what their company does and what it takes to do every job in the company. They did not know this and that is an embarrassing situation. They are paid the big bucks to know this so that they could ensure continued success for ADP. They failed.

So these are the facts. Not anger. Not negativity but solid evidence. You will see the same information presented by many other posters on this site, some angry, some not.

Again, you are playing the "anger" and "negativity" card simply because you don't like what is being posted here and are trying to silence the opposition.

We're all playing the game, whether you choose to or not.

Lets see in my area 3 people gone that actually work hard and know their stuff because someone didn't like them. maybe that's part of the problem???