Any ETA on this? Thx
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Open enrollment starts in a week. No rumors or even facts about a VRBP. I guess its 2025 or bust now!
Early aughts, which these comments make seem like the beginning in hindsight. Back then it felt great to me. By 2012 the troubles were already quite clear, so that’s too late to be the beginning. Of course it’s hardest to see when you’re in it. Even with “Day One” vigilance instead of hubris and complacency, it would be tough.
2012 is near the peak from a revenue perspective as well. 2013 was the first year that revenues topped $3B. They've stayed around $3B ever since.
Adjusted for inflation, revenues have declined >2% per year. Headcount has shrunk by a similar amount.
At the same time, the amount of data in the world grew exponentially.
As you say, the seeds were sown much earlier.
@sdkj+1tN3dQHB I'm curious to know when you joined, and refer to as "the beginning of the end".
I left SAS in 2019 after 15 years. From a product perspective, if I had to put a milestone on "the beginning of the end", it was the launch of SAS Visual Analytics in 2012.
Of course, the seeds were sowed many years before that.
Open enrollment is typically in October right? That is our next best chance!
Reading these comments, I think I joined around the beginning of the end but didn't know it at the time. A lot of the management probably did not, either. We were still riding what we thought were tailwinds, blissfully unaware of the impending trouble. It felt a bit euphoric working for such a "great place to work". Friends and family seemed envious or proud. It's clear now we should've been recognizing "Day Two" issues and trying to work on them. I left before the huge difficulties started and more of us were recognizing the growing troubling changes in the overall market every week. I wish we could've done more to help meet those challenges. Nevertheless, I am grateful for and miss those days and many of you I'm sure I knew. Good luck to all.
“By early 2000s… SAS was left behind… how long is it been since SAS has had real revenue growth?”
Adjusted for inflation, revenues probably stopped growing in the early 2000s. Wikipedia says revenues were $2.15B in 2007 — equivalent to $3.25B in 2023.
Against open source competition, the original revenue stream began to decline. SAS needed new revenue streams.
But low compensation, and promotion of "B" and "C" talent, stifled innovation. “A” players who could have created new revenue streams were incentivized to leave.
The SAS business model maintained its original revenue stream, but prevented new revenue streams.
Replying to some of the most recent comments …
It’s the absolute truth at SAS was built by A talent. From the mid-80s onward to early 90s, R&D began to hire some B talent simply as a matter, of course, because the company was growing so fast. By then Tech had grown to the point where the absolute best talent from the local universities were probably going west to California or up to the New York corridor for higher pay jobs.
Some of that B talent turned out to be C talent. A players were not always consistent as the decades wore on and their performance varied, depending on personal life circumstances, who their manager was, etc.
similar problems are faced everywhere. SAS had lots of growing pains that unfortunately were often not properly addressed from a management development standpoint. Until 2005 or so it was relatively easy for SAS to manage decent growth and JG’s frugal, corporate values and refusal to offer equity, did a good job of keeping expenses in line. It was a business model that worked very well from 1980 until about 1997, when it began to slowly unravel.
By early 2000s the ground swelling paradigm shift to cloud computing and big West Coast Tech rewrote the rules of management, innovation, and compensation (Oracle, Microsoft, and a handful of others had foreshadowed some of this from the mid 80s through the 90s.). SAS was left behind, struggling to innovate anything of the significance it did with MVA from the mid 80s to early 90s.
So when the erosion of its brand/technology and inflation are factored in, how long is it been since SAS has had real revenue growth?
Agree having "B"s as well as "A"s can make a lot of sense. I don't buy that everyone should be "A"s. Amongst the people seeking credentials, there is so much time wasted on garbage to prove to each other how smart everyone is instead of getting work done. They may be "smart", but they are "Day Two" kinds of people. But "B"s can hurt you if they gain the power to make those bad decisions because they are the one who hire the "C"s, then the death marches and getting nothing done get locked into the process. You get the GCCs, the TED style talks, the twisted versions of Agile, everything these comments complain about.
Those people “learned helplessness”. If management said stupid things like make yet another bad version of something that exists, wasting resources again and again, you’re essentially put on a death march. Which is ultimately what happened. It’s hard to blame those workers, A, B, or C. Inept management. Nobody has tried to admit those mistakes here even anonymously. They probably instead blame their own management. The people who tried to stop the stupidity left or were pushed away.
@mihn+1tN3dQHB
“[SAS doesn't] want to have competitive salaries, instead touting a 35 hour work week”
That is a strong argument, and I agree. I don’t blame anyone for working 35 hours, if it’s an honest 35. That is the deal we were offered.
My complaint is about people who work 35 hours, and produce little or no work. Even worse, some produce inferior work that, because of politics, others are required to use.
This has compromised the quality of SAS products, and has been one cause of the decline of SAS.
"SAS consistently failed to manage its “C”s. "
Tell me about it. There's nothing worse at SAS than a Principal who got their title based on longevity and not technical competence deciding that the title entitles them to a voice in technical decisions, but unable to comprehend that they don't understand the technologies involved, let alone the implications of those technologies. Combined with the rampant nepotism and boot-licking, it's a toxic combination for failure. That's the last ten years of SAS development history in a nutshell.
A hard-working “B” talent can be more valuable than an “A” talent. Sometimes what a company needs most are people who can produce.
Also, “B”s never hurt a company. They want to work, they want to contribute. And after gaining experience, some of them become “A”s.
What ki-ls a company are its “C” talents. You have to give these people a reasonable chance to become “B”s. But if they cannot or will not, you have to give them a reasonable path out of your company.
SAS consistently failed to manage its “C”s.
Of course we made hiring mistakes; every company does. But we kept ours. After a few years, many of them got promoted — by reason of seniority. Some of them got into leadership positions -- and are still there.
I saw some of those case studies that suggested you could use "B" talent to get "A" results. They’re bullsh-t.
The only reason that worked is that SAS was founded, and in its early years led, by “A” talent. The revenue stream they built was so strong, it supported “B” and “C” talent for decades.
Once the “B” and “C” talent got promoted to leadership positions, the “A” talent had to compromise. The result was mediocrity.
I'm thankful there was a place for "B" talent! While I'm sure 80% think they are "A" talent, probably only 5-10% are. I'm "B" or high "C" but do try to work hard.
for a while, case studies praised how you might be able to use "B" talent and still get "A" results. as much as we might like to drink the kool-aid, we can see from this experience how it's dangerous to have such complacency, hubris, and ignorance combined together like that over the longer term. "B" talent likely cannot know what they don't know if not exposed to enough "A" talent. eventually you get the "Day 2" Bezos phenomenon someone else mentioned on this or another thread. unfortunately they need to rewrite all those studies now.
@majb - if SAS needs / wants more than 35 hours a week from its employees it needs to make if official. But they don't want to have competitive salaries, instead touting a 35 hour work week. Then people walk around saying that "a 35 hour work week is a myth" - it isn't for me most weeks, I'll tell you that. Not until it's written as such - SAS can't have its cake and eat ot too.
We never hired the best. We hired the best local talent; I’ll give you that. But it’s not like we reached out to recruit from Stanford and MIT.
Certainly we never hired the hardest workers. Many SAS employees worked exactly 35.0 hours per week, not a minute more. Many still do.
And it was always difficult to fire people for incompetence or laziness. Still is.
On the other hand, you can’t blame people for accepting a sweet deal. For many people, their only career goals are to pay their mortgage and raise their kids. Nothing wrong with that.
But you had to compromise with what they produced — or failed to produce. Your manager had to compromise with theirs — and all the way up.
And that meant you could not build good software.
If that was your career goal, SAS was not a place to achieve it. That’s why I left.
For many years, SAS was scooping up laid off employees from an old-school big technology company thinking it's a bargain, not realizing SAS did not hire the best and hardest workers but instead SAS actually lowered the standard of hiring.
in hindsight, think a lot of us suffered from a sort or organizational version of learned helplessness. nobody would leave so it was hard to get promoted. management made bad decisions and promoted other sycophants. we learned working hard and smart was a bit pointless and helpless. hopefully most in that situation left.
"Enabling" is what some would call it. Enabling allows bad habits to flourish without consequence. "Learned helplessness" occurs after stymied attempts to change course.
"SAS’ “no layoffs” policy has been its greatest and ultimately worst idea. It has led to complacency, lack of accountability, unhealthy low turnover"
Interesting that for many, many years, the low turnover was touted as a very positive thing. I always believed that. This makes me think you are likely correct though -- it can indicate something unhealthy.
"SAS’ “no layoffs” policy has been its greatest and ultimately worst idea. It has led to complacency, lack of accountability, unhealthy low turnover - all leading to the best and brightest talent leaving for better opportunities elsewhere, tired of having stifled career growth at SAS, while lazy, incompetent, unmotivated, entitled employees su-kle at the teet of SAS’ country club approach to business."
As much as I appreciate what Dr. G provided for me for almost 30 years, I believe you are actually correct.
SAS’ “no layoffs” policy has been its greatest and ultimately worst idea. It has led to complacency, lack of accountability, unhealthy low turnover - all leading to the best and brightest talent leaving for better opportunities elsewhere, tired of having stifled career growth at SAS, while lazy, incompetent, unmotivated, entitled employees su-kle at the teet of SAS’ country club approach to business.
Sow meet reap.
Looks like no VRBP offer in August. Moving hopes to September.
@sas4evr
You forgot /s
not quite there yet (was too young for VRBP). current company is 100% remote, so we don't quite forge the same friendships. maybe that's a good prep to be ready to form post work relationships.
True. Didn't literally mean you don't give a flip. My point was just that once you no longer have a work connection, there are very few people that remain in touch with anyone other than their closest work friends. The post I was responding to seemed to imply SAS employees were unique in 'not giving a flip' about you when you leave.
I don't keep in touch with any of my former co-workers from SAS, but I have very fond memories and thoughts of many of them.
“you didn't give a flip about the other 98 people”
That’s not generally true. Most people care about others.
But when you retire, with or without a VRBP, you lose much of your social life. You no longer see your work friends regularly, and it’s hard to arrange that without the convenient meeting place of work.
Meet for lunches at SAS. That has helped me. I stay in touch that way with a few work friends that I am closest to.
And plan your retirement. Figure out: what activities do I want to do, now that I have more time; and where will I make new friends to replace those I lose?
By the same token, you didn't give a flip about the other 98 people. That's just a fact of life and nothing to do with SAS.
Missed the VRBO by about a year. No regrets because that was a year longer of retirement. As time progresses we realize that time is worth way more than money.
About those you left behind. For every 100, 98 of them just didn't give a flip that you are gone. They don't miss you. All they miss is what you did and they resent the fact that they have to figure it out without you. The other 2 were and still are your friends. Because of you, not what you did for them. Those are the few to be missed. Hold those 2 in your heart and let go of the other 98.
Definitely had more work-life balance in my post-VRBO West Coast Tech gig than in the final decade of a 30+ year SAS career. Even so, I eventually fully retired.
Of course, there are aspects of SAS I miss, especially long-term relationships with solid people and having had influence, minor as it may have been, over many iterations of our products. Moving to a new, fast growing company is basically starting over again, having to build credibility and prove oneself. Working remotely added a new set of challenges to this.
The work world continues to change so much, especially Tech, that I can’t imagine anyone 55+ feeling the same level of workplace comfort and Joy, even at SAS, that they felt a decade or more ago.
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I think that the more that we talk about it the less likely it is going to happen.
"Can any VRBP retirees share what life after SAS has been like, and how you've been able to cope without the company of those of us who stayed behind?? "
Since the 2021 VRBP occured in the mid-pandemic timeframe, we weren't really in the office much anyway. It was a tough decision, overall I cherish my 32.7 years at SAS. I miss many things about SAS, especially my coworkers. But not the commute. Have been back for lunch a handful of times, nice to have that option while my younger colleagues are still working there.
So I went back to work, was layed off after 1.5 years, tried retirement for a couple of months. But those corporate recruiters reached out with a can't-refuse offer, so back at work. The pay/benefits have been far, far superior to SAS, but the hours are long and responsibility high. Miss the 35-hour work week from the golden years of youth. Was not having much fun the final three years at SAS, after the 2018 first rapture.
Taking the VRBP and going back to work has put me in a great financial position to really retire next year. Unlike some, I don't regret leaving any earlier (was too young in 2018). Working for huge West Coast high tech publicly-held corporations is not even close to the family-friendly work-life-balance good times we had at SAS during it's heyday.
p.s. If SAS comes to it's senses and wants to hire us VRBP takers back, I'd seriously consider it.
doing the VRBP/VRBO summoning dance all day
Can any VRBP retirees share what life after SAS has been like, and how you've been able to cope without the company of those of us who stayed behind??
2021 VRBP retiree here. I hope a new VRBP is announced this week (or soon) and everyone who wants to be included is included.
“Maybe this week? The last one (2021) was announced the 2nd week of August”
I suddenly find myself wishing I was just a wee bit older :/
Maybe this week? The last one (2021) was announced the 2nd week of August.